Welcome to the cold war again

I bet russia is bidding on any pieces of the berlin wall on ebay.

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-35027720080815?rpc=64

VS wrote:I bet russia is bidding on any pieces of the berlin wall on ebay.

[url=http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-35027720080815?rpc=64

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-35027720080815?rpc=64[/quote[/url]]

It pisses me off.

When the cold war was over and russia basically became a 3rd world country, the USA was good to russia. Now that the states is weak and russia is strong again, they are bitches again?

You don't see germany going back to nazi, or japan seeking revenge because of hiroshima, even though they seem to be powerful again. But russia? they just played nice when they were weak. Now back to being evil. Seriously wtf? It's so unfair/unethical.

fucking russia

They're done being weak and see an opportunity to make a strong political push in the area now that the US is stretching itself thin in Iraq and elsewhere. Most of the rest of Europe has already or is aligning against them, and even China is getting cozier with the West. Russia doesn't like not having any clout in area affairs anymore and feels more isolated.

Thing is, they're not really any stronger than they were a few years ago. They just have a lot of hardliners gaining power and rousing their populace with their rhetoric of returning to greatness. Compared to the old Soviet Union days, that's almost more scary, because they may feel more like they have nothing to lose in certain situations. The USSR at least wielded a lot of influence and power and didn't want to fuck that up. Russia still has a shitload of nukes and some scary people with access to the button, and they're acting like a feral dog backed into a corner, ready to strike.

Makes me wonder...if they decide to start annexing neighboring countries again and try to revive the Iron Curtain, is the West going to stop them this time? Before, the West couldn't do much at the time because Europe was still trying to recover from WW2. Nowadays, Western Europe is in a much stronger position to react, but one wonders if they will?

putin just wants to bring back the old russia. fucking kgb maniac.

YES! BRING BACK THE USSR!!!!!!!

god. paul mccartney will be milking that.

itll be awesome to have them be the bad guys in movies again. i know chinas kinda like they used to be now, but its just not the same. we need the real thing.

lol, the national anthem of russia is the same as the soviet union's was only without words

I watched something last week on this and the words from the Russians were a lot more inflammatory than that article. Basically, they said their missiles wouldn't be pointed at the interceptors, but instead the first strike would be on Warsaw, then Gdansk and so on.
The Czechs also came in for some Russian hate. It was pretty crazy to see politicians and military types of a friendly country speaking so bluntly.

anyone russian on af?

JaysonAych wrote:They're done being weak and see an opportunity to make a strong political push in the area now that the US is stretching itself thin in Iraq and elsewhere. Most of the rest of Europe has already or is aligning against them, and even China is getting cozier with the West. Russia doesn't like not having any clout in area affairs anymore and feels more isolated.

Thing is, they're not really any stronger than they were a few years ago. They just have a lot of hardliners gaining power and rousing their populace with their rhetoric of returning to greatness. Compared to the old Soviet Union days, that's almost more scary, because they may feel more like they have nothing to lose in certain situations. The USSR at least wielded a lot of influence and power and didn't want to fuck that up. Russia still has a shitload of nukes and some scary people with access to the button, and they're acting like a feral dog backed into a corner, ready to strike.

Makes me wonder...if they decide to start annexing neighboring countries again and try to revive the Iron Curtain, is the West going to stop them this time? Before, the West couldn't do much at the time because Europe was still trying to recover from WW2. Nowadays, Western Europe is in a much stronger position to react, but one wonders if they will?

Does it anger you as much as it angers me that they were playing nice while they felt they were weaker? And now that the US is weak and as you say, had spreaded itself thin, they show the true colors they have been hiding since the USSR fell?

I don't see the west doing shit. Everybody is afraid of the islamic terrorists and doesn't care about a war that isn't their own. "Yes, they invaded (insert small ex-USSR country here). These wackos with strap on bombs are threatening me again, fuck (small USSR country here), I have my own problems".

The USA didn't do shit when russia invaded georgia. Bush could only give speeches. Nor did the UK. FRANCE (yes, FRANCE!) came with a peace proposal ( and a white flag to surrender, just in case ), that's it. Who would stand up to the russians?

What would probably happen is that Russia would invade one or two small countries, then the UN security council would gather, throw a bunch of "resolutions" with which russia will wipe its ass. Then, only then, will they approve some B.S. peace negotiations, which russia won't abide. By then the russians are threatening to invade a 3rd country. There, fear WW III....

Having said that, I know a couple russian people are they're pretty cool... (they live in the states though, I don't know russians living in russia).

I want to see what belarus, ukraine and norway do now.

All I know is that Aris is all giddy at the possibility of nuclear holocaust.

I think this is largely a perspective issue.

We can say alot of the same shit about the US going into Iraq and its bullshit hardline rhetoric.

I do find it interesting that purely since Georgia is in the 'coalition of the willing' that nobody's even interested in looking at the Russian perspective and seeing if maybe they did prevent a genocide in South Ossetia. This isn't black and white people. Only the deepest shade of gray.

911 wrote:I think this is largely a perspective issue.

We can say alot of the same shit about the US going into Iraq and its bullshit hardline rhetoric.

I do find it interesting that purely since Georgia is in the 'coalition of the willing' that nobody's even interested in looking at the Russian perspective and seeing if maybe they did prevent a genocide in South Ossetia. This isn't black and white people. Only the deepest shade of gray.

Objective Data:

South Ossetia is part of Georgia (fact)
South Ossetia has an important oil pipeline (fact).
Georgia wanted to join NATO, they very organization born from WW II. (fact)
South Ossetia is full of separatists who wanted to join Russia. (fact)

Interesting fact:

Russia was giving Russian passports to South Ossetians (!!!)

The very country that your separatist province wants to join issues them passports. How fucked up is that?

AH! Then the russians say that they're russian citizens and therefore they can attack georgia. It's a cunning plan from russia. They do not give a shit about genocide. They are pissed off that their former bitch state now wants to join NATO, plus they want to take over a separatist province of that country which happens to have an oil pipeline.

I am not saying the USA doesnt fuck up as well. Irak was terrible. Afghanistan was stupid. But at least USA is consistent, they don't play nice little reformed and friendly country and then become monsters again when they feel strong again.

911 wrote:I think this is largely a perspective issue.

We can say alot of the same shit about the US going into Iraq and its bullshit hardline rhetoric.

I do find it interesting that purely since Georgia is in the 'coalition of the willing' that nobody's even interested in looking at the Russian perspective and seeing if maybe they did prevent a genocide in South Ossetia. This isn't black and white people. Only the deepest shade of gray.

And you can say the same thing about what's happening in Chechnya. Hypocrisy on all sides, and it all comes down to money and/or nationalistic pride. As always.

TheWoerus wrote:All I know is that Aris is all giddy at the possibility of nuclear holocaust.

The_Edge wrote:

911 wrote:I think this is largely a perspective issue.

We can say alot of the same shit about the US going into Iraq and its bullshit hardline rhetoric.

I do find it interesting that purely since Georgia is in the 'coalition of the willing' that nobody's even interested in looking at the Russian perspective and seeing if maybe they did prevent a genocide in South Ossetia. This isn't black and white people. Only the deepest shade of gray.

Objective Data:

South Ossetia is part of Georgia (fact) Which is populated by ethnic Russians and wants to break away as well as Abkhazia but Georgia won't let them.
South Ossetia has an important oil pipeline (fact). Yep. But realistically, what country doesn't?
Georgia wanted to join NATO, they very organization born from WW II. (fact) Many nations have joined NATO. Poland, Bulgaria, Czech, Slovakia.
South Ossetia is full of separatists who wanted to join Russia. (fact) Yep.

Interesting fact:

Russia was giving Russian passports to South Ossetians (!!!) That's a weasel justification to enter, but the UN resolution that the US used to justify entering Iraq was at least as greasy

The very country that your separatist province wants to join issues them passports. How fucked up is that? Look at it from their perspective - it used to be all the same country and it's an area inhabited by ethnic Russians.

AH! Then the russians say that they're russian citizens and therefore they can attack georgia. It's a cunning plan from russia. They do not give a shit about genocide. They are pissed off that their former bitch state now wants to join NATO, plus they want to take over a separatist province of that country which happens to have an oil pipeline. I think it's at least worth investigating - I'm not saying who's right and who's wrong (it's likely that there's no answer to that question) I'm saying that if we expect Russia to act as a worldly nation we have to treat it like one and take its claims seriously enough to take a good look. Nobody did that, everyone immediately sided with the Georgians despite some pretty serious accusations both ways.

I am not saying the USA doesnt fuck up as well. Irak was terrible. Afghanistan was stupid. But at least USA is consistent, they don't play nice little reformed and friendly country and then become monsters again when they feel strong again.

I just think it deserves checking their claims, that's all. If they're right these incursions can be considered justifiable. Certainly more justifiable than the US invasion of Iraq.[/b]

TheWoerus wrote:

911 wrote:I think this is largely a perspective issue.

We can say alot of the same shit about the US going into Iraq and its bullshit hardline rhetoric.

I do find it interesting that purely since Georgia is in the 'coalition of the willing' that nobody's even interested in looking at the Russian perspective and seeing if maybe they did prevent a genocide in South Ossetia. This isn't black and white people. Only the deepest shade of gray.

And you can say the same thing about what's happening in Chechnya. Hypocrisy on all sides, and it all comes down to money and/or nationalistic pride. As always.

That's a defeatist statement that doesn't mean anything.

If the Russian claims are correct or partially so then there's a case for the invasion. Of course it should have gone through official channels but I know of a country or two who have acted unilaterally in the recent past.

Which is populated by ethnic Russians and wants to break away as well as Abkhazia but Georgia won't let them.

It is still part of Georgia. I mean, look at the vasque "country" spain, ireland and the UK, etc. Just because you decide you don't want to be part of a country it doesn't mean other country can go and kick your ass. Hey if LA wanted to become part of mexico, or miami part of cuba, would the states let that happen? (They're full of mexicans or cubans lol). What if a southern part of canada with many americans decided they wanted to become part of the USA? It doesn't work that way... Wait, texas was even part of mexico, What if texas tried to become part of mexico again? (let's just assume)


Yep. But realistically, what country doesn't?

You can never have too much oil.If you find an excuse you go and try to get the oil.



Many nations have joined NATO. Poland, Bulgaria, Czech, Slovakia.

Russia was weaker then, which brings us to my first post, that's what pisses me off, now they behave differently.



South Ossetia is full of separatists who wanted to join Russia. (fact) Yep.

Interesting fact:

That's a weasel justification to enter, but the UN resolution that the US used to justify entering Iraq was at least as greasy

I totally agree. But this isn't about seeing if the states is better than russia or otherwise, it is about russians becoming bullies again because they feel strong again.


Look at it from their perspective - it used to be all the same country and it's an area inhabited by ethnic Russians.

Then let them handle it. Russia had no right to enter... borders are still borders.

I think it's at least worth investigating - I'm not saying who's right and who's wrong (it's likely that there's no answer to that question) I'm saying that if we expect Russia to act as a worldly nation we have to treat it like one and take its claims seriously enough to take a good look. Nobody did that, everyone immediately sided with the Georgians despite some pretty serious accusations both ways.

I totally agree. Now russia has blown it chances of being seen as a wordly nation, though.

Russia also changed from a country like japan, germany, even italy (WW II losers, who are now friends with USA, work together and are modern and left the past behind) to a bunch of bitter, revenge consumed countries.

.[/quote]

I just think it deserves checking their claims, that's all. If they're right these incursions can be considered justifiable. Certainly more justifiable than the US invasion of Iraq.[/b][/quote]

But why draw that comparision? You can't kick your roomate in the balls because your neighbor gave a falcon punch to his girlfriend...

Which is populated by ethnic Russians and wants to break away as well as Abkhazia but Georgia won't let them.

It is still part of Georgia. I mean, look at the vasque "country" spain, ireland and the UK, etc. Just because you decide you don't want to be part of a country it doesn't mean other country can go and kick your ass. Hey if LA wanted to become part of mexico, or miami part of cuba, would the states let that happen? (They're full of mexicans or cubans lol). What if a southern part of canada with many americans decided they wanted to become part of the USA? It doesn't work that way... Wait, texas was even part of mexico, What if texas tried to become part of mexico again? (let's just assume)

Usually you'll see a referendum and actual proceedings (as occurred in Quebec in the 1990s) but this isn't a 1st world country and the 'elected' representatives would never let that happen. According to the Russians, the Georgians were advancing on unarmed Ossetians with the intention of getting rid of the problem. I see an analog to this situation if Quebec attempted to separate, we moved on them and the US stepped in to stop it. Alot of differences but also alot of commonalities


Yep. But realistically, what country doesn't?

You can never have too much oil.If you find an excuse you go and try to get the oil.

Thing is, the Georgians don't have oil. They have pipelines which transport Russian oil. Russians control the flow and largely control the pipeline already; there's no incentive to do it based on resources.



Many nations have joined NATO. Poland, Bulgaria, Czech, Slovakia.

Russia was weaker then, which brings us to my first post, that's what pisses me off, now they behave differently.

They had nukes then, they have nukes now. The problem is oil being as expensive as it is and them having so much of it. Their current power comes economically, not militarily. And I also want to bring this back to their claims - it's actually a positive thing in my opinion if they really did stop a genocide. It's acting differently in a good way. I think if we expect them to act as a world citizen we have to take their claims seriously and not come out with bullshit rhetoric particularly like John McCain was spouting.

South Ossetia is full of separatists who wanted to join Russia. (fact) Yep.

Interesting fact:

That's a weasel justification to enter, but the UN resolution that the US used to justify entering Iraq was at least as greasy

I totally agree. But this isn't about seeing if the states is better than russia or otherwise, it is about russians becoming bullies again because they feel strong again.

It is when the US sees itself as the moral leader and basically barks orders as it pleases.

Look at it from their perspective - it used to be all the same country and it's an area inhabited by ethnic Russians.

Then let them handle it. Russia had no right to enter... borders are still borders.

You can't leave unarmed citizens to fight a war. If it's either the Russians violating Georgian sovereignty or Georgia violating the Geneva Conventions, I choose violation

I think it's at least worth investigating - I'm not saying who's right and who's wrong (it's likely that there's no answer to that question) I'm saying that if we expect Russia to act as a worldly nation we have to treat it like one and take its claims seriously enough to take a good look. Nobody did that, everyone immediately sided with the Georgians despite some pretty serious accusations both ways.

I totally agree. Now russia has blown it chances of being seen as a wordly nation, though.

Not if we pull our heads out of our asses and take an objective look. If it's still bullshit then at least we have evidence. Using that logic the US has done the same damn thing and nobody seems to be banning them from world talks. There's one rule - when you're in a hole, you're allowed to stop digging.

Russia also changed from a country like japan, germany, even italy (WW II losers, who are now friends with USA, work together and are modern and left the past behind) to a bunch of bitter, revenge consumed countries.

Russia's different and we have to accept that. Hopefully China teaches them that they can interact with the world without shit going down.


But why draw that comparision? You can't kick your roomate in the balls because your neighbor gave a falcon punch to his girlfriend...

Put yourself as the moral authority and you're open to comparison when you come out so fucking strongly

Hopefully these didn't get fucked up or this will be unreadable.

The_Edge wrote:

JaysonAych wrote:They're done being weak and see an opportunity to make a strong political push in the area now that the US is stretching itself thin in Iraq and elsewhere. Most of the rest of Europe has already or is aligning against them, and even China is getting cozier with the West. Russia doesn't like not having any clout in area affairs anymore and feels more isolated.

Thing is, they're not really any stronger than they were a few years ago. They just have a lot of hardliners gaining power and rousing their populace with their rhetoric of returning to greatness. Compared to the old Soviet Union days, that's almost more scary, because they may feel more like they have nothing to lose in certain situations. The USSR at least wielded a lot of influence and power and didn't want to fuck that up. Russia still has a shitload of nukes and some scary people with access to the button, and they're acting like a feral dog backed into a corner, ready to strike.

Makes me wonder...if they decide to start annexing neighboring countries again and try to revive the Iron Curtain, is the West going to stop them this time? Before, the West couldn't do much at the time because Europe was still trying to recover from WW2. Nowadays, Western Europe is in a much stronger position to react, but one wonders if they will?

Does it anger you as much as it angers me that they were playing nice while they felt they were weaker? And now that the US is weak and as you say, had spreaded itself thin, they show the true colors they have been hiding since the USSR fell?

I don't know if they're showing their true colors per se. It seems to me that after the fall of the Soviet Union, there's been some uncertainty in how things were going to go after that. Some things shook out for the best, some didn't, and I think there's been an undercurrent of uncertainty for a long time. After more than a decade of that, a group of hardliners stand up and say Russia can be great again and lay out the path to do it, and suddenly there's a focus and confidence, and people go with it after being without a strong identity for so long, despite how that focus appears to the rest of the world.