Went looking at cars today

Who the hell is paying $27,000 for a Ford Focus? Or $23,000 for a Fiesta? Why are you fucking it up for people who are looking for something reasonably priced? :jay:

Weren't you thinking about a Dart? What do those start at? some one in the flesh a couple days ago - cool looking car.

I'm thinking about it, but since they're brand new, there's not many deals to be had yet, plus all the Darts on lots are either complete strippers or fully-loaded...little in-between. The Focus and Fiesta right now have a $2,300 cash back and $1,300 cash back offer, respectively. So I was trying to see what could be finagled.

I get X-Plan pricing on Fords and Affiliate pricing on Chryslers through work, so I can get a pretty good price when I'm ready to buy, but I wanted to see if anyone wanted to deal. Turns out the cars I want aren't out there right now.

I'm also being conservative with what I buy right now. After January, I might be working different hours and my bonuses might be different, so I don't know what kind of money exactly I'll be pulling in beyond my base pay, so I'm playing it safe for the moment. Plus, when my 3-paycheck month in March hits, I'll be in much better position to get something.

Just go get a Kia Rio and cry in a goddamn corner you fuck.

Benfolio wrote:Just go get a Kia Rio and cry in a goddamn corner you fuck.

All the Kia dealers here are owned by the same franchise group and they're dirty shitters. Every one of their cars comes with a crappily-installed RFID swipe security system and pinstriping, so you pay an additional $3500 on top of sticker for everything on their lot. So you have to either order a car, which means no deals or incentives for certain, or drive to Cincinnati or Indianapolis to buy a stupid Kia. And even Rios are getting expensive if you want something decently-packaged.

Besides, I drove its sister car, the Accent, and it's slow as balls considering the torque and power. The Elantra I used to own and the Tiburon my folks had were both similarly powered and a lot faster, to say nothing of the Fiesta.

I'm on the fence about Fords. The new Focus ST and Fusion are the first two Fords in a while that I like besides the Mustang. However, I am not wowed by anything else in the lineup.

You know I'm all about the Dart, but they are brand new and even the technicians aren't all familiar with them yet.

I like the Cruze. I've driven one and I have to say they're pretty good cars.

Other than that, there's nothing in the segment that I like, at least that I can remember.

They had an ST on the lot, but unless I get a promotion in the near future (I'm working on it, but nothing's for certain yet), it's definitely not happening. I hope it's got a different shifter, because I didn't like the one in the Focus SE. It wanted to center itself quite a bit and I kept putting it in third when I was trying to downshift to first.

The Cruze seems like a nice enough car, but it's so boring on the outside. Y U NO BRING THE WAGON, GM?

I find the Cruze's styline sort of offensive--like they tried too hard. the hatch (that everybody else in the world gets except us--their home f%&*ing market) does takes a lot of the edge off the car's "dorkiness." The Cruze is expensive though. bargan basement it's pretty reasonable, but if you want anything on it that you might actually--you know, use--the prices get pretty steep pretty quick.

The rear of the Cruze looks bad, as does the rear end of a lot of Chevies these days. I'd rather a Sonic hatchback but the thing that really kills that car is that someone at GM said, "Hey, you know that shitty as fuck front end on the Aveo5 that nobody liked? Let's put that on the Sonic too."

The Ford dealer was trying like hell to get me in that Focus or any kind of Focus nearby that they could reach out and get their hands on. Even though it was a sedan and I wanted a hatch. And most of them were silver and I told them I hated silver. And that I was open to a Fiesta and they just ignored that.

I wish there were some small sedans that were rear wheel drive. With today's technology, there isn't any reason they can't make a 4 cylinder, rear drive car, that could get 35-40 mpg.

If anyone says otherwise, please refer to the current V6 Ford Mustang.

JaysonAych wrote:

Benfolio wrote:Just go get a Kia Rio and cry in a goddamn corner you fuck.

All the Kia dealers here are owned by the same franchise group and they're dirty shitters. Every one of their cars comes with a crappily-installed RFID swipe security system and pinstriping, so you pay an additional $3500 on top of sticker for everything on their lot. So you have to either order a car, which means no deals or incentives for certain, or drive to Cincinnati or Indianapolis to buy a stupid Kia. And even Rios are getting expensive if you want something decently-packaged.

Besides, I drove its sister car, the Accent, and it's slow as balls considering the torque and power. The Elantra I used to own and the Tiburon my folks had were both similarly powered and a lot faster, to say nothing of the Fiesta.

Sorry, but if it makes you feel any better i've complained about this several times.

Look at a Mazda6? I know they're kinda big, but you can get a good deal on them with the all new '14 on the way in January.

1300ZUK wrote:

JaysonAych wrote:

Benfolio wrote:Just go get a Kia Rio and cry in a goddamn corner you fuck.

All the Kia dealers here are owned by the same franchise group and they're dirty shitters. Every one of their cars comes with a crappily-installed RFID swipe security system and pinstriping, so you pay an additional $3500 on top of sticker for everything on their lot. So you have to either order a car, which means no deals or incentives for certain, or drive to Cincinnati or Indianapolis to buy a stupid Kia. And even Rios are getting expensive if you want something decently-packaged.

Besides, I drove its sister car, the Accent, and it's slow as balls considering the torque and power. The Elantra I used to own and the Tiburon my folks had were both similarly powered and a lot faster, to say nothing of the Fiesta.

Sorry, but if it makes you feel any better i've complained about this several times.

I can forgive the power thing somewhat. It's not so bad once you turn the Eco switch off, but I imagine the mileage drops tremendously if I do that. I do like the way the new Rios look inside and out, and if not for the dealer situation, for the right price I'd just turn the Eco switch off and deal with it.

Benfolio wrote:Look at a Mazda6? I know they're kinda big, but you can get a good deal on them with the all new '14 on the way in January.

Yeah, I don't want anything that big this time around. If they were amazing deals, like 17k range, and if Mazda still sold the 5-door, I'd consider it.

JaysonAych wrote:

1300ZUK wrote:

JaysonAych wrote:

Benfolio wrote:Just go get a Kia Rio and cry in a goddamn corner you fuck.

All the Kia dealers here are owned by the same franchise group and they're dirty shitters. Every one of their cars comes with a crappily-installed RFID swipe security system and pinstriping, so you pay an additional $3500 on top of sticker for everything on their lot. So you have to either order a car, which means no deals or incentives for certain, or drive to Cincinnati or Indianapolis to buy a stupid Kia. And even Rios are getting expensive if you want something decently-packaged.

Besides, I drove its sister car, the Accent, and it's slow as balls considering the torque and power. The Elantra I used to own and the Tiburon my folks had were both similarly powered and a lot faster, to say nothing of the Fiesta.

Sorry, but if it makes you feel any better i've complained about this several times.

I can forgive the power thing somewhat. It's not so bad once you turn the Eco switch off, but I imagine the mileage drops tremendously if I do that. I do like the way the new Rios look inside and out, and if not for the dealer situation, for the right price I'd just turn the Eco switch off and deal with it.

Benfolio wrote:Look at a Mazda6? I know they're kinda big, but you can get a good deal on them with the all new '14 on the way in January.

Yeah, I don't want anything that big this time around. If they were amazing deals, like 17k range, and if Mazda still sold the 5-door, I'd consider it.

Do you guys get the Mazda 2s? I took a close look at one a couple months back. Nice little cars. Not sure if they come with Skyactive, but if you don't mind foregoing a stick shift I think that's a pretty sweet combination. The 5 door hatch up here is less than $18 K with decent options. Barebones around $14 K, if you can find one.

JaysonAych wrote:

1300ZUK wrote:

JaysonAych wrote:

Benfolio wrote:Just go get a Kia Rio and cry in a goddamn corner you fuck.

All the Kia dealers here are owned by the same franchise group and they're dirty shitters. Every one of their cars comes with a crappily-installed RFID swipe security system and pinstriping, so you pay an additional $3500 on top of sticker for everything on their lot. So you have to either order a car, which means no deals or incentives for certain, or drive to Cincinnati or Indianapolis to buy a stupid Kia. And even Rios are getting expensive if you want something decently-packaged.

Besides, I drove its sister car, the Accent, and it's slow as balls considering the torque and power. The Elantra I used to own and the Tiburon my folks had were both similarly powered and a lot faster, to say nothing of the Fiesta.

Sorry, but if it makes you feel any better i've complained about this several times.

I can forgive the power thing somewhat. It's not so bad once you turn the Eco switch off, but I imagine the mileage drops tremendously if I do that. I do like the way the new Rios look inside and out, and if not for the dealer situation, for the right price I'd just turn the Eco switch off and deal with it.

I get exactly the same mileage in an Optima with or without ECO on. Just annoys the crap out of me so much that end up sticking my foot further to the floor and negating all the things it's trying to "help" me with.

thewalrus wrote:

JaysonAych wrote:

1300ZUK wrote:

JaysonAych wrote:

Benfolio wrote:Just go get a Kia Rio and cry in a goddamn corner you fuck.

All the Kia dealers here are owned by the same franchise group and they're dirty shitters. Every one of their cars comes with a crappily-installed RFID swipe security system and pinstriping, so you pay an additional $3500 on top of sticker for everything on their lot. So you have to either order a car, which means no deals or incentives for certain, or drive to Cincinnati or Indianapolis to buy a stupid Kia. And even Rios are getting expensive if you want something decently-packaged.

Besides, I drove its sister car, the Accent, and it's slow as balls considering the torque and power. The Elantra I used to own and the Tiburon my folks had were both similarly powered and a lot faster, to say nothing of the Fiesta.

Sorry, but if it makes you feel any better i've complained about this several times.

I can forgive the power thing somewhat. It's not so bad once you turn the Eco switch off, but I imagine the mileage drops tremendously if I do that. I do like the way the new Rios look inside and out, and if not for the dealer situation, for the right price I'd just turn the Eco switch off and deal with it.

Benfolio wrote:Look at a Mazda6? I know they're kinda big, but you can get a good deal on them with the all new '14 on the way in January.

Yeah, I don't want anything that big this time around. If they were amazing deals, like 17k range, and if Mazda still sold the 5-door, I'd consider it.

Do you guys get the Mazda 2s? I took a close look at one a couple months back. Nice little cars. Not sure if they come with Skyactive, but if you don't mind foregoing a stick shift I think that's a pretty sweet combination. The 5 door hatch up here is less than $18 K with decent options. Barebones around $14 K, if you can find one.

We do, but I prefer its platform-mate Fiesta.

and we only get the 4-door hatch Mazda2.

And its not the Skyactiv, and they're not going to sell it in the US after this year or the next.
The price is too high for what few features it comes with.

Man, i've lost so much interest in cars lately.

Part of it i put down to F1 becoming shit
Part of it is down to having no involvement in motorsport anymore
But the main thing is the endless barrage of incredibly capable but completely boring performance cars coming out. The new Enzo is going to be a hybrid ffs. What happened to fire spitting V12 Diablos??

If i could go out and buy any car i wanted today, there is absolutely nothing i would want from a new car showroom.

My girlfriend will probably be buying a Fiesta in January. They're ok, but she's insistent on getting an auto.

The other issue is we have an apartment with only two parking spots. This means I'll have to sell the BMW - it may not make any sense, but I'm thinking of replacing it with an S15 200SX.

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:Man, i've lost so much interest in cars lately.

Part of it i put down to F1 becoming shit
Part of it is down to having no involvement in motorsport anymore
But the main thing is the endless barrage of incredibly capable but completely boring performance cars coming out. The new Enzo is going to be a hybrid ffs. What happened to fire spitting V12 Diablos??

If i could go out and buy any car i wanted today, there is absolutely nothing i would want from a new car showroom.

I still like cars, but yeah, most of the new offerings from the major manufacturers are getting pretty boring. Too much technology - not every God damn vehicle needs touch screen GPS etc etc. That said I can think of a few new cars that appeal to me. Would you really say 'no' to a new Lotus Elise? The standard 911 and Boxster still seems pretty sweet - though for the price I'd rather buy a used 993 and pocket the remaining 60%. One of my buddies rented a new V8 Mustang - really cool car. I certainly wouldn't complain with one in my garage. There are some decent vehicles out there. But my obsession has waned pretty significantly in the last 10 years. Also, the new Miata has pretty much entirely lost the plot in my estimation.

I'd still like a classic british roadster at some point, though. MGB, Sprite, Lotus, etc.

Swerve wrote:My girlfriend will probably be buying a Fiesta in January. They're ok, but she's insistent on getting an auto.

The other issue is we have an apartment with only two parking spots. This means I'll have to sell the BMW - it may not make any sense, but I'm thinking of replacing it with an S15 200SX.

I want an S15. shame we never got those here, they were the prettiest ones by far.

thewalrus wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:Man, i've lost so much interest in cars lately.

Part of it i put down to F1 becoming shit
Part of it is down to having no involvement in motorsport anymore
But the main thing is the endless barrage of incredibly capable but completely boring performance cars coming out. The new Enzo is going to be a hybrid ffs. What happened to fire spitting V12 Diablos??

If i could go out and buy any car i wanted today, there is absolutely nothing i would want from a new car showroom.

I still like cars, but yeah, most of the new offerings from the major manufacturers are getting pretty boring. Too much technology - not every God damn vehicle needs touch screen GPS etc etc. That said I can think of a few new cars that appeal to me. Would you really say 'no' to a new Lotus Elise? The standard 911 and Boxster still seems pretty sweet - though for the price I'd rather buy a used 993 and pocket the remaining 60%. One of my buddies rented a new V8 Mustang - really cool car. I certainly wouldn't complain with one in my garage. There are some decent vehicles out there. But my obsession has waned pretty significantly in the last 10 years. Also, the new Miata has pretty much entirely lost the plot in my estimation.

I'd still like a classic british roadster at some point, though. MGB, Sprite, Lotus, etc.

I was expecting a new generation Miata, and all we ended up getting this year was a facelift. But supposedly when the ND Miata really comes out, it will have been on a diet compared to the current car. Even so...
I'd rather a BRZ.

But if you do buy a classic British roadster, that'd be cool. Although that MGB might be a little more than a match for even your patience.

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:Man, i've lost so much interest in cars lately.

Part of it i put down to F1 becoming shit
Part of it is down to having no involvement in motorsport anymore
But the main thing is the endless barrage of incredibly capable but completely boring performance cars coming out. The new Enzo is going to be a hybrid ffs. What happened to fire spitting V12 Diablos??

If i could go out and buy any car i wanted today, there is absolutely nothing i would want from a new car showroom.

Lots of new cars to rock one's world.

Dodge Viper SRT
Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1
Chevrolet Corvette Z06
Cadillac CTS-V
Chevrolet Camaro SS
Chevrolet Camaro ZL-1
Ford Mustang Boss302
Ford Mustang Shelby 500
Dodge Challenger SRT392
Nissan GTR
BMW M5
BMW M3
Ferrari 458 Italia
Lamborghini Aventador
Hyundai Genesis Coupe V6 or Turbo
Nissan 370Z
Aston Martin DB9
Aston Martin Virage
Mercedes SLS AMG

I could go on.

Any fan of performance driving and just cool sporty car would be quite happy playing with any of the above.


As to F1 well I'd make some changes to the formula such as bringing back refueling and opening up engine design. Keep displacement rules tight but let them do whatever cylinder design they want to do. These are just two things could suggest in changing. OBTW I'd also bring back the old 45 minutes (12laps max.) qualifying of many years ago.

Yeah, the S15 is a great example of a simple design combining aggression and prettiness. The R34's helical LSD as standard is a nice touch too...

Speaking (above) of the MX5, the first new car in a long time that I have considered trying to afford is the 2014 or 15 Alfa-Mazda roadster. The MX5 chassis with Alfa styling and engine sounds too good to be true. The only way they can stuff it up is by charging a stupid premium over the Mazda.

I have always believed that the S14 and S15 would have sold better in the US if they also would have had the SR20DE and DET motors. I know the S15 wasn't sold here, but it should have been.

I hate to say it, but the S14 with the SR20DET could have easily challenged the SN95 Mustang GT.

I agree, if they had stepped up their engine game it would have been much more competitive in the market, but they priced themselves out of the market trying to sell a 150hp car for 24k$

They easily could have taken the existing KA drive train and done a supercharged or turbo version with little modification, but didn't feel as though that was the market they were trying to compete in...or obviously just modified the SR to be compliant with emissions regulations.

Get a Genesis Coupe.

I think Jay wants something with 4-doors. Plus the Genesis Coupe is up around $30k.

Les_Vipers_rule wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:Man, i've lost so much interest in cars lately.

Part of it i put down to F1 becoming shit
Part of it is down to having no involvement in motorsport anymore
But the main thing is the endless barrage of incredibly capable but completely boring performance cars coming out. The new Enzo is going to be a hybrid ffs. What happened to fire spitting V12 Diablos??

If i could go out and buy any car i wanted today, there is absolutely nothing i would want from a new car showroom.

Lots of new cars to rock one's world.

Dodge Viper SRT
Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1
Chevrolet Corvette Z06
Cadillac CTS-V
Chevrolet Camaro SS
Chevrolet Camaro ZL-1
Ford Mustang Boss302
Ford Mustang Shelby 500
Dodge Challenger SRT392
Nissan GTR
BMW M5
BMW M3
Ferrari 458 Italia
Lamborghini Aventador
Hyundai Genesis Coupe V6 or Turbo
Nissan 370Z
Aston Martin DB9
Aston Martin Virage
Mercedes SLS AMG

I could go on.

Any fan of performance driving and just cool sporty car would be quite happy playing with any of the above.

Thats precisely my point... look at the above cars and compare to what went before them. Sure they're fast, but wheres the fun if you know its only the electronics that are keeping you on the road?

Lets go supercar shopping in the 90s...

Ferrari F40/F50
Porsche 911 GT1
Mercedes CLK-GTR
TVR Cerbera
Lamborghini Diablo
McLaren F1
Porsche 962
Porsche 993 GT2
Ferrari 550

Most of those wouldn't be allowed off the drawing board these days, yet most of them are still considered the pinnacle of their manufacturers achievements.

you can still turn all the nannies off in most, if not all of those cars, and even then you would still be able to stay on the track more easily (with the correct application of skill of course) then in say those Porsches or that Diablo. Driver aids are really only needed for use on the street, as well they should be used on the street. but on the track, with the regulatory systems off, I'm willing to bet today's supercars are still better in terms of just about everything.

that's not to say of course that 90's supercars were crap; far from it. The McLaren F1 GTR will forever in my mind be my Holy Grail of supercars. And a lot of other cars have come out since that are faster or better looking, or even better driving, but none have yet come out to make me change my mind; not even the P1.

SBF wrote:I think Jay wants something with 4-doors. Plus the Genesis Coupe is up around $30k.

Actually 2-doors is nice too. But I can't afford a Genesis Coupe. Can't even afford an FR-S

Well not at MSRP. I've heard (and seen) the dealer markups on the Toyobaru and its asinine.

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

Les_Vipers_rule wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:Man, i've lost so much interest in cars lately.

Part of it i put down to F1 becoming shit
Part of it is down to having no involvement in motorsport anymore
But the main thing is the endless barrage of incredibly capable but completely boring performance cars coming out. The new Enzo is going to be a hybrid ffs. What happened to fire spitting V12 Diablos??

If i could go out and buy any car i wanted today, there is absolutely nothing i would want from a new car showroom.

Lots of new cars to rock one's world.

Dodge Viper SRT
Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1
Chevrolet Corvette Z06
Cadillac CTS-V
Chevrolet Camaro SS
Chevrolet Camaro ZL-1
Ford Mustang Boss302
Ford Mustang Shelby 500
Dodge Challenger SRT392
Nissan GTR
BMW M5
BMW M3
Ferrari 458 Italia
Lamborghini Aventador
Hyundai Genesis Coupe V6 or Turbo
Nissan 370Z
Aston Martin DB9
Aston Martin Virage
Mercedes SLS AMG

I could go on.

Any fan of performance driving and just cool sporty car would be quite happy playing with any of the above.

Thats precisely my point... look at the above cars and compare to what went before them. Sure they're fast, but wheres the fun if you know its only the electronics that are keeping you on the road?

Lets go supercar shopping in the 90s...

Ferrari F40/F50
Porsche 911 GT1
Mercedes CLK-GTR
TVR Cerbera
Lamborghini Diablo
McLaren F1
Porsche 962
Porsche 993 GT2
Ferrari 550

Most of those wouldn't be allowed off the drawing board these days, yet most of them are still considered the pinnacle of their manufacturers achievements.

Not to mention the Jaguar XJ220 (one of my all time favorites).

For me, it's not just about the performance nannies - though that's there as well. It's also about all the other computers and electronics which, in my opinion muddle the experience. Touch screen dashes, iDrive like interfaces, etc. etc. Give me a pure care with the bare essentials, lots of horsepower, excellent handling, and leave it at that. The Lotus Elise still uses that formula, at least.

Turbojett wrote:I'm willing to bet today's supercars are still better in terms of just about everything.

Of course they're better, but they're more boring for it.

I don't need or want satellite navigation and massage seats in a sports car, but they're considered basic now. The Lotus Elise would be perfect if they stretched it a bit and put a 4.0 V8 or 5.0 V12 in there.

Consider this - Ferrari F40 v Ferrari 458? One is indisputably faster, but the other you would take every. single. time.

JaysonAych wrote:

SBF wrote:I think Jay wants something with 4-doors. Plus the Genesis Coupe is up around $30k.

Actually 2-doors is nice too. But I can't afford a Genesis Coupe. Can't even afford an FR-S

Fieros can be had pretty cheap.

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

Turbojett wrote:I'm willing to bet today's supercars are still better in terms of just about everything.

Of course they're better, but they're more boring for it.

but if you've turned off the electronic aids like I said, how would they be any more boring than an older car? just because the engineers made them handle better? I mean take the Aventador versus the Diablo: you can still turn off all the driver assist systems in the newer Lambo, and they don't have any fancy magnetic shocks or anything like that; just inboard-mounted pushrod- actuated hydraulic shocks. They still made it handle better than Lamborghinis of yore, but still have that trademark Lamborghini touchiness at the limit.
So what if it has nav and heated massaging seats? I can ignore those, and if you can't you can always have them deleted when you order the car.

Turbojett wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

Turbojett wrote:I'm willing to bet today's supercars are still better in terms of just about everything.

Of course they're better, but they're more boring for it.

but if you've turned off the electronic aids like I said, how would they be any more boring than an older car? just because the engineers made them handle better? I mean take the Aventador versus the Diablo: you can still turn off all the driver assist systems in the newer Lambo, and they don't have any fancy magnetic shocks or anything like that; just inboard-mounted pushrod- actuated hydraulic shocks. They still made it handle better than Lamborghinis of yore, but still have that trademark Lamborghini touchiness at the limit.
So what if it has nav and heated massaging seats? I can ignore those, and if you can't you can always have them deleted when you order the car.

The well known pig of supercars the Diablo was still 100kg lighter in its leanest form than the modern, supposedly lightweight Aventador is. You can turn off the electronic aids but then you're left with a bloated, overweight mess in many cases.

As i say, theres a reason the Ferrari F40 is still considered to pinnacle of super cars.

Turbojett wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

Turbojett wrote:I'm willing to bet today's supercars are still better in terms of just about everything.

Of course they're better, but they're more boring for it.

but if you've turned off the electronic aids like I said, how would they be any more boring than an older car? just because the engineers made them handle better? I mean take the Aventador versus the Diablo: you can still turn off all the driver assist systems in the newer Lambo, and they don't have any fancy magnetic shocks or anything like that; just inboard-mounted pushrod- actuated hydraulic shocks. They still made it handle better than Lamborghinis of yore, but still have that trademark Lamborghini touchiness at the limit.
So what if it has nav and heated massaging seats? I can ignore those, and if you can't you can always have them deleted when you order the car.

Every car I listed earlier would kick the crap out of each of theirs 90's or 80's contemporaries. IE: Model vs model.

In fact most hi-po/sporty cars of the 90's had as standard ABS and many had traction control too, all more cruder than today's versions of each. But as great as many were (the sleeper of the 90's was the Mazda RX-7 IMO) each would lose badly to any of its more contemporary versions.

As noted most if not all driving aids can be switched off but fact is for most drivers, 99% of us (yes including you and me here) in real life situations these driving aids will help make you drive (even faster) more safer. On the track, sure turn em off. In day to day life with other drivers including all too many idiots and the biggest twits are the ones using cell phones etc. while driving or even worse the fuckwads texting as such driving on the roads, with falling a part road infrastructure being more prevalent and with variable weather well these driving aids keep you safer even when going well above the legal speed limits.

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:The well known pig of supercars the Diablo was still 100kg lighter in its leanest form than the modern, supposedly lightweight Aventador is. You can turn off the electronic aids but then you're left with a bloated, overweight mess in many cases.

I really don't think that's the case. most of them are still faster/handle better than their 20 year old counterparts. in any case, a good portion of that weight is also mandated safety equipment. so even if you have a stipped down supperleggerra model, it still has to be heavier. and at any rate, comparing the leanest Diablo (probably the SV) to the Aventador (which is not a lightweight special edition model) is a bit misleading.
but with 700hp, an 100kg is not very noticeable. that's basically like a (largish) full grown man riding shotgun.

What's interesting is that in magazine back-to-back comparisons, the model everyone derides tends to win. E.g. F50 beat F40 and Enzo, 206GTI beat 205 and 207, R33 GTR beat R32 and R34, NB MX5 beat NA and NC (this one wasn't such a shock).

Supercars are expensive, but the models that impress me are the affordable ones. You can buy a 135i with its great engine and sports/luxury package for less (not even inflation-adjusted) than my E36 328i cost in the 90s. It's a direct comparison too, since they are the same size and one model below the M. But you get a lot more for the money these days.