Connecticut school shooting

I spent about 6 hours driving around Louisville today, getting all of my Christmas shopping done. I was standing in line for the Toys R Us checkout counter at about 4:00 Friday afternoon, completely oblivious to the horrific school shooting that happened earlier in the day, holding a pair of Nerf guns that I was going to get for my little cousin for Christmas, and I probably looked like a right asshole to everyone in attendance.

I got home sometime later and found out about it and I just cried about it. I've been spending a lot of time since then trying to find out information and the whole thing is just awful. Goddamn, how does something like that happen?

Stuff like this happens because we have in society messed up and sick people. The killer's motives remain but his deal is done. All we can do is express condolences and make the best out of a terrible tragedy. Stuff like this is not new and likely won't stop happening at times. Don't forget some nut in China stabbed 22 kids today too.

America needs to take a long, hard look at itself when a kid can just pick an automatic weapon out of his parent's closet with such consummate ease and then go and do something like this.

People are dying all over the place lately. My Facebook is full of RIP posts. A friend of mine jumped off a building last week. Its crazy

Yeah, it's horrible. And it's assholes like these who give the other 99.9999999 % of gun owners who don't murder children a bad name. I know they weren't his guns though, but if the guy had a history of mental illness, the parents probably should have tried to keep them away from him better. I don't know all the details though, so who knows what really happened. Shame so many kids had to die because of one loon though.

Seems like it's either we give up our guns or put armed security guards everywhere. If nothing else that would deter alot of would be shooters.

Some people here in Illinois have made the comment that conceal carry would have probably stopped this........

People open their mouths to hear themselves speak. No school would have ever allowed teachers or staff to carry guns in a school.

I want to know though how he got in the school. All the schools I have been to, even in nice areas, have security thresholds. You have to get buzzed into the office and then the office has to buzz you into the school itself. Did this school not have something like that? Did he slip in through the Janitors entrance?

SBF wrote:Some people here in Illinois have made the comment that conceal carry would have probably stopped this........

People open their mouths to hear themselves speak. No school would have ever allowed teachers or staff to carry guns in a school.

I want to know though how he got in the school. All the schools I have been to, even in nice areas, have security thresholds. You have to get buzzed into the office and then the office has to buzz you into the school itself. Did this school not have something like that? Did he slip in through the Janitors entrance?

Apparently he shot his way in.

JaysonAych wrote:I spent about 6 hours driving around Louisville today, getting all of my Christmas shopping done. I was standing in line for the Toys R Us checkout counter at about 4:00 Friday afternoon, completely oblivious to the horrific school shooting that happened earlier in the day, holding a pair of Nerf guns that I was going to get for my little cousin for Christmas, and I probably looked like a right asshole to everyone in attendance.

I got home sometime later and found out about it and I just cried about it. I've been spending a lot of time since then trying to find out information and the whole thing is just awful. Goddamn, how does something like that happen?

I was at work and just happened to be talking to one of my counterparts who mentioned it. It was so upsetting once I started reading all the articles. I can't even imagine what those parents are going through right now.

clockbreaker wrote:Yeah, it's horrible. And it's assholes like these who give the other 99.9999999 % of gun owners who don't murder children a bad name.

I agree.

xtine wrote:

JaysonAych wrote:I spent about 6 hours driving around Louisville today, getting all of my Christmas shopping done. I was standing in line for the Toys R Us checkout counter at about 4:00 Friday afternoon, completely oblivious to the horrific school shooting that happened earlier in the day, holding a pair of Nerf guns that I was going to get for my little cousin for Christmas, and I probably looked like a right asshole to everyone in attendance.

I got home sometime later and found out about it and I just cried about it. I've been spending a lot of time since then trying to find out information and the whole thing is just awful. Goddamn, how does something like that happen?

I was at work and just happened to be talking to one of my counterparts who mentioned it. It was so upsetting once I started reading all the articles. I can't even imagine what those parents are going through right now.

I was at work and saw it on the internet. First headline was something like, 17 children killed at Elementary School.

What in the bloody fuck is wrong with people?

SBF wrote:Some people here in Illinois have made the comment that conceal carry would have probably stopped this........

People open their mouths to hear themselves speak. No school would have ever allowed teachers or staff to carry guns in a school.

I want to know though how he got in the school. All the schools I have been to, even in nice areas, have security thresholds. You have to get buzzed into the office and then the office has to buzz you into the school itself. Did this school not have something like that? Did he slip in through the Janitors entrance?

No school I've ever been do required anything to get in. You just walk through the front door and that's it.

Concealed carry in an elementary school would be a tough thing to justify, but I do think it should be allowed on college campuses. Would have put a quicker halt to the VT shooter.

PS - Guns are banned from schools already and it doesn't mean shit, obviously. You can ban guns from everywhere and the only people who you "hurt" are the ones who already follow the law.

Can you imagine being one of the parents of one of those kids??? It's two fucking weeks before Xmas for Christ sake. God damn.

Talon wrote:

SBF wrote:Some people here in Illinois have made the comment that conceal carry would have probably stopped this........

People open their mouths to hear themselves speak. No school would have ever allowed teachers or staff to carry guns in a school.

I want to know though how he got in the school. All the schools I have been to, even in nice areas, have security thresholds. You have to get buzzed into the office and then the office has to buzz you into the school itself. Did this school not have something like that? Did he slip in through the Janitors entrance?

No school I've ever been do required anything to get in. You just walk through the front door and that's it.

Concealed carry in an elementary school would be a tough thing to justify, but I do think it should be allowed on college campuses. Would have put a quicker halt to the VT shooter.

PS - Guns are banned from schools already and it doesn't mean shit, obviously. You can ban guns from everywhere and the only people who you "hurt" are the ones who already follow the law.

Have you been to a school lately? All the schools when I was in school had nothing, you just walked in. But I have been to a few in the last few months, and you have to get buzzed in to get into the office, then once you sign in, you have to get buzzed into the school itself. And these are schools in small towns too.

I agree though about the conceal carry in college.

My asshole co-worker had the day off, and posted a "check in" at a gun range/gun store at the time everyone was finding out the details (the story had broke hours before). I posted "Too soon", and he flipped his shit. As a gun owner.
Its those kind of assholes, who think its their right to own every type of gun known to man because "the law says I can", then flaunt it and talk way too much about it, and get super pissed when people call them out on it and say, "hey, now's not a good time".
Yes, its your right to own one for sport, self defense, whatever. But assault rifles? And many different kinds? C'mon, that's pushing it.
I guess I can compare the gun thing to a car thing. It makes sense, both are deadly weapons when used the wrong way.
The government says that you can only drive certain cars on public streets, and they must meet strict regulations. You need a key to operate them. They cost a LOT of money. The nicer and faster they are, the more $$$ is costs the owner.
That way, the fastest ones are in the hands of a few minorities, and the faster still are regulated to the race track, a controlled environment. Kind of like a shooting range.
But guns are cheap. Anyone with a simple background check can buy them. There is a slight price increase as guns get larger and more powerful, but pretty much every one of those is just as legal as the smallest handgun. You don't have to keep them at the gun range, or locked up while in transit or in the garage. They are legal in some states to pretty much walk around with.
But we aren't allowed to drive race cars with minimal safety equipment on the street. They are polluting, noisy, dangerous machines. That's why they're regulated and enforced.
Both are hobbies, and both are deadly in the wrong hands, and in an accident.
But you don't see race car owners/drivers with such a passion the march on Washington, have petitions, and have controversial laws that they try to pass with such passion, they hate, absolutely HATE anyone who opposes them.
Some gun owners do. Now while this may be the minority, it still happens. Far too much. I think because they think it is owed them, and somewhere in their fearful minds, they think that one day they'll need them.
Funny, because since the Civil War, a long long long long long time ago, no one really has.
And those are the types of people that are enforcing the stereotypes of those gun owners that treat it like an obsession. No, 99.9999999% of them do not use them in an illegal way, and don't go hunting babies. But they demand the laws that makes it easier for that 0.000001% to do so.
But unlike the race car driver, they're not pushing it in everyone's face, and bragging about having guns, buying them, shooting them, etc.
Except ricers. They're like the redneck 2nd amendment toting gun law lobbyists. Forgot about them.

Talon wrote:Can you imagine being one of the parents of one of those kids??? It's two fucking weeks before Xmas for Christ sake. God damn.

Didnt the kid start with the mother?

yeah

i dont think the founding fathers could even conceive of what a shitstorm the 2nd amendment would cause 200 years later. if they had known im sure they would have reconsidered and then none of us would own guns and stuff like this would be alot less common.

But how are you guys going to have an intelligent conversation about this stuff? As Obama pointed out, this happens too often in America. Other countries do not have this problem. How on earth do you begin to change? You have one side seeking a total ban on all guns, and the other wanting everyone carrying for the sake of deterrence (mutually assured destruction).

With 300 million guns floating around the country I kind of think the gun control horse has left the barn. But I don't think everyone wants to live a Wild West fantasy. And radically improved access and awareness of mental health care is something Republican politicians will oppose due to the influence of lobbyists. How do you fix that mess?

spaced cowboy wrote:But how are you guys going to have an intelligent conversation about this stuff? As Obama pointed out, this happens too often in America. Other countries do not have this problem.

This happened like two days ago in China. Very similar, but he used a knife and killed 22 kids.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/world/asia/man-stabs-22-children-in-china.html?_r=0

Benfolio wrote:My asshole co-worker had the day off, and posted a "check in" at a gun range/gun store at the time everyone was finding out the details (the story had broke hours before). I posted "Too soon", and he flipped his shit. As a gun owner.
Its those kind of assholes, who think its their right to own every type of gun known to man because "the law says I can", then flaunt it and talk way too much about it, and get super pissed when people call them out on it and say, "hey, now's not a good time".
Yes, its your right to own one for sport, self defense, whatever. But assault rifles? And many different kinds? C'mon, that's pushing it.
I guess I can compare the gun thing to a car thing. It makes sense, both are deadly weapons when used the wrong way.
The government says that you can only drive certain cars on public streets, and they must meet strict regulations. You need a key to operate them. They cost a LOT of money. The nicer and faster they are, the more $$$ is costs the owner.
That way, the fastest ones are in the hands of a few minorities, and the faster still are regulated to the race track, a controlled environment. Kind of like a shooting range.
But guns are cheap. Anyone with a simple background check can buy them. There is a slight price increase as guns get larger and more powerful, but pretty much every one of those is just as legal as the smallest handgun. You don't have to keep them at the gun range, or locked up while in transit or in the garage. They are legal in some states to pretty much walk around with.
But we aren't allowed to drive race cars with minimal safety equipment on the street. They are polluting, noisy, dangerous machines. That's why they're regulated and enforced.
Both are hobbies, and both are deadly in the wrong hands, and in an accident.
But you don't see race car owners/drivers with such a passion the march on Washington, have petitions, and have controversial laws that they try to pass with such passion, they hate, absolutely HATE anyone who opposes them.
Some gun owners do. Now while this may be the minority, it still happens. Far too much. I think because they think it is owed them, and somewhere in their fearful minds, they think that one day they'll need them.
Funny, because since the Civil War, a long long long long long time ago, no one really has.
And those are the types of people that are enforcing the stereotypes of those gun owners that treat it like an obsession. No, 99.9999999% of them do not use them in an illegal way, and don't go hunting babies. But they demand the laws that makes it easier for that 0.000001% to do so.
But unlike the race car driver, they're not pushing it in everyone's face, and bragging about having guns, buying them, shooting them, etc.
Except ricers. They're like the redneck 2nd amendment toting gun law lobbyists. Forgot about them.

Cliffs Notes?

clockbreaker wrote:i dont think the founding fathers could even conceive of what a shitstorm the 2nd amendment would cause 200 years later. if they had known im sure they would have reconsidered and then none of us would own guns and stuff like this would be alot less common.

The 2A was original conceived so that the people could protect themselves against the government. In theory, whatever they have, we should have (within reason, of course).

they were just kindergartners. practically just babies.
i hope there's a special room in hell ready for him.

Talon wrote:

clockbreaker wrote:i dont think the founding fathers could even conceive of what a shitstorm the 2nd amendment would cause 200 years later. if they had known im sure they would have reconsidered and then none of us would own guns and stuff like this would be alot less common.

The 2A was original conceived so that the people could protect themselves against the government. In theory, whatever they have, we should have (within reason, of course).

if they wanted to take us out a few pistols and rifles wouldnt stop them. they even mop the floor with countries who have actual armies so how are a bunch of citizens gonna stand a chance? times were very different when that was written.

Talon wrote:

spaced cowboy wrote:But how are you guys going to have an intelligent conversation about this stuff? As Obama pointed out, this happens too often in America. Other countries do not have this problem.

This happened like two days ago in China. Very similar, but he used a knife and killed 22 kids.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/world/asia/man-stabs-22-children-in-china.html?_r=0

He wounded them, fortunately none were killed. And yes, it does happen elsewhere. But it happensto you guys too often. There was a shooting in a shopping mall earlier this week as well.

Like I said, I don't know how you can fix it. But it seems an abnormally high number of disturbed people lash out using firearms in America. There're too many guns to take away, so how do you find the crazies before they get to that point?

Talon wrote:

spaced cowboy wrote:But how are you guys going to have an intelligent conversation about this stuff? As Obama pointed out, this happens too often in America. Other countries do not have this problem.

This happened like two days ago in China. Very similar, but he used a knife and killed 22 kids.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/world/asia/man-stabs-22-children-in-china.html?_r=0

he stabbed 22 kids, but they all survived.

Though the stats comparing gun homicide in the US to many of its peers is clear to show homicide by gun is many, many times higher in the USA the simple fact is this and it does not matter what one's politics are and stance guns and gun control are. The USA has built itself on its gun culture and the 2nd Amendment will not likely be changed. Of course it has been misinterpreted in its understanding but fact is numerous Supreme Court decisions have somehow found it to be as loosely interpreted as US society has it as. So since it is an amendment, to abrogate or change it is hard. It requires Congressional support, the signing of the sitting President and 39/50 states to agree to said changes. IMO, THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

Simply this, the US citizens have accepted the costs of gun homicide in order to protect the right to bear arms. I'm not going to judge this one way or another but only state it as fact. The USA will keep its right to bear arms and will live by it as a society. Arguing over it won't change this as again you will not get enough support to make any such constitutional change.

This all said as high as gun homicide is in the USA compared to other states it is still far from a leading killer of citizens and life for most folks in the USA is still quite safe. Car crashes still kill vastly more folks including all too many children in the USA. Though most people do not intend to kill others via the car. IMO most citizen in the USA need not fear walking down their streets nor sending kids to school. Concern over events like this is fair and should be discussed but going off half cocked so to speak wont help. What govts can do to better protect US citizens from gun homicide I DO NOT KNOW! But I know the USA well enough it ain't abandoning the 2nd Amendment. I'm not going to say it should or should not but only noting it's probably staying as a part of its constitution.

our right to bear firearms was put in place solely to protect us from those that would do us harm; corrupt government and murderers alike. If guns are outlawed, then this means only outlaws will have guns, and we will have lost our ability to properly defend ourselves from such a threat.

spaced cowboy wrote:But how are you guys going to have an intelligent conversation about this stuff? As Obama pointed out, this happens too often in America. Other countries do not have this problem. How on earth do you begin to change? You have one side seeking a total ban on all guns, and the other wanting everyone carrying for the sake of deterrence (mutually assured destruction).

With 300 million guns floating around the country I kind of think the gun control horse has left the barn. But I don't think everyone wants to live a Wild West fantasy. And radically improved access and awareness of mental health care is something Republican politicians will oppose due to the influence of lobbyists. How do you fix that mess?

I think that last paragraph is the real battle. There are a solid core group of Republicans that are against any form of legislation that might make it more inconvenient for people to get weapons, and oddly enough also against making mental healthcare easier to get. While I think we need a bit more of the former (this one particular instance looks to have been mostly unavoidable though further legislation, but doing things that close gun show loopholes and reforming and standardizing laws regarding purchasing, background checks, and safe storage would have some impact on future potential shootings), the latter is far more pressing. Until we have easily accessible mental healthcare for those who need it, and until we remove the stigmas associated with needing mental healthcare, things like this are going to keep happening. We need a culture that's ready to help people get the assistance they need before they do something like this, and not worried so much about the expense.

Turbojett wrote:our right to bear firearms was put in place solely to protect us from those that would do us harm; corrupt government and murderers alike. If guns are outlawed, then this means only outlaws will have guns, and we will have lost our ability to properly defend ourselves from such a threat.

Outlawing guns outright is highly unpopular in America, even among those who don't own guns, and like Spaced Cowboy said earlier the horse is out of the barn. There's 270 million guns floating around out there, so outlawing them would be completely impractical. The guns are here, and any legislation that's enacted has to deal with that fact. I think law-abiding citizens should be able to have whatever guns they want, but we need to start looking at more ways to keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them. A reform in gun sales channels, gun registration, licensing gun owners and periodic licensing evaluations that cross reference background checks with mental healthcare, and mandating certain things with regards to gun storage would be best at preventing some things from happening.

You can't stop every instance from happening, and like I said earlier, even with these kinds of things in place it likely wouldn't have prevented Connecticut from happening (unless it comes out that the mother bought guns for her son knowing him to be mentally unstable, or if something could be done through mandating gun safes or similar storage regulations that would have kept him from getting to them). But it would have prevented a lot of other shootings, and would have an impact at preventing some future catastrophes.

You get nutcases everywhere - but the US penchant for guns means that instead of the nutcase losing his temper and trashing the local 7/11 or at worst killing one or two people, he takes an M4 carbine and shoots up the school/shopping centre/cinema/etc. Guns are the problem, make no mistake.

As far as i see it, there is absolutely no reason for any citizen to own anything above a pistol for self defence or a rifle for hunting. Id be interested to see an American here attempt to justify it, because the rest of the world cant fathom it?

But most of these massacres happen with semi auto pistols, not automatics. So even having them around is a risk.

Tighter restrictions, and beef up security everywhere. Armed guards. Probably would be a lot of logistical problems though.

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:You get nutcases everywhere - but the US penchant for guns means that instead of the nutcase losing his temper and trashing the local 7/11 or at worst killing one or two people, he takes an M4 carbine and shoots up the school/shopping centre/cinema/etc. Guns are the problem, make no mistake.

As far as i see it, there is absolutely no reason for any citizen to own anything above a pistol for self defence or a rifle for hunting. Id be interested to see an American here attempt to justify it, because the rest of the world cant fathom it?

Where do you draw the line on what a hunting rifle is? Many people hunt with an AR-15.

Some people out there also use them for hobby and recreation as well. To want to take away said platform because YOU see no need for it would be like me saying there should be no Ferrari because there really isn't a need for them.

clockbreaker wrote:But most of these massacres happen with semi auto pistols, not automatics. So even having them around is a risk.

Of course. I think most people are uneducated in this.

Can you buy a fully automatic gun in the US? Yes. However, it's EXTREMELY difficult and very expensive. For example, to get approval from the ATF takes about six months and the individual has to go through numerous background checks through the FBI, ATF, prints, etc. Just to submit the paperwork is $200. Then, one can only purchase a fully auto gun that was made in 1986 or before. Even the cheapest of the cheap, pre-1986 guns, like the Mac 10 for example, are about $5,000+. An Uzi would be like $9,000+ and an M16 will run $15,000+. You want something like an HK91 and you're looking $25,000. They have to be bought through a special, class III dealer (which are few and far between).

Anyway, my point is anyone willing and able to pass the FBI and ATF background checks, to buy an auto gun are the least of my worries. So, 99.99999999% of the guns you see out there for sale are indeed, semi-auto.

I do think guns get a bad rap, too.

I guy goes into a bar, drinks himself stupid, drives home, crosses the median and hits another car head on... kills a family of five. Everyone blames the irresponsible asshole who drank too much and drove; no one blames the booze and tries to put higher restrictions on alcohol consumption/purchasing. 10,200+ people were killed last here in the US because of drunk driving.

That guy in the mall killed two people (not sure how many he may have injured). Everyone blames the guns. Rather than banning guns, why not ban using them in a crime?

It sucks, the situation I mean. But it's a consequence to having rights.

Talon wrote:I do think guns get a bad rap, too.

I guy goes into a bar, drinks himself stupid, drives home, crosses the median and hits another car head on... kills a family of five. Everyone blames the irresponsible asshole who drank too much and drove; no one blames the booze and tries to put higher restrictions on alcohol consumption/purchasing. 10,200+ people were killed last here in the US because of drunk driving.

.

You could also blame the car

Gun Control is not going to stop shootings, even in the unlikely case you could get rid of guns, there are plenty of other options of mass destruction out there.

I think it's a social issue, suburbs are getting to be more dangerous than inner cities. Uninspiring shitholes that drive conformity.

unfortunately there's no easy answer. something, anything has to change though. this shit is a crime against humanity.

It's never going to stop. Knives, guns, or bombs... people are still going to do stupid shit like this. You don't need a gun to do a lot of serious damage.

Talon wrote:It's never going to stop. Knives, guns, or bombs... people are still going to do stupid shit like this. You don't need a gun to do a lot of serious damage.

No, you don't. But guns provide an easy method to do a lot of damage. And there is a much higher number of these incidents in the U.S. than elsewhere. Why?

Well it's probably pretty hard for a regular person to make a bomb that would be as effective as a gun could be in that same person's hands. Like what would most people be able to make? A pipe bomb? You're probably not killing 20 people with that. And knives or swords are a threat of course, but it's still not as easy to kill with them as it is with a gun, and plus it would probably be easier for people to stop you with a knife as opposed to a gun.

Bombs are the deadliest and most destructive, but they're also the hardest to get/make. Knives are extremely easy to get, but they're not as dangerous as a gun or bomb can be. Guns are both very destructive and fairly easy to get.

spaced cowboy wrote:

Talon wrote:It's never going to stop. Knives, guns, or bombs... people are still going to do stupid shit like this. You don't need a gun to do a lot of serious damage.

No, you don't. But guns provide an easy method to do a lot of damage. And there is a much higher number of these incidents in the U.S. than elsewhere. Why?

I am no expert, but most of these incidents happen in suburban areas. Depending on your personality, i think that is the worst place to grow up. You don't really hear about shootings and such happening at schools in the ghetto unless its drug or gang related.

It's a social issue not a gun control issue, the people are crazy.