How is America going to get out of this one?

by Swerve Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:27 am

It seems America is completely stuffed. Economists are desperately looking for signs of economic growth in the face of falling demand for resources. The problem is that the pre-GFC spending was never sustainable. You can't have an entire country's population averaging 50 grand per year yet spending all their money and relying on borrowed funds from another country's people who average 2 grand per year. It will be a while before American banks have 2006 levels of lending power available again - the Chinese are just too smart.

Even if inflation does occur, it's not because of demand but because so much money is being printed. I don't see a solution to America's woes and it's probably in its best long-term interest to have the double-dip recession caused at least in part by people able to do so actually saving their money.

by VS Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:05 pm

I am not smart enough to comprehend global economies.

by Honor Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:47 pm

I welcome our new chinese overlords

by Pennzoil GT-R Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:39 pm

america is screwed, but then china is in no position to take up the slack

by ascona Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:42 pm

afrika will come and save you.

then you no longer have to eet de poo poo

by Swerve Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:01 pm

Germany would be the best of the large economies by far, if only it could be free of supporting the shitty Euros. If I was a hard working German tax payer, I would not be happy bailing out a bunch of lazy Mediterraneans who are only going to continue ruining their economies.

by 1300ZUK Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:06 am

I don't know.

I don't know if i should spend like crazy or save.

So far i've been spending >\

by Pennzoil GT-R Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:38 pm

Swerve wrote:Germany would be the best of the large economies by far, if only it could be free of supporting the shitty Euros. If I was a hard working German tax payer, I would not be happy bailing out a bunch of lazy Mediterraneans who are only going to continue ruining their economies.

hopefully the euro will fail before we get dragged into it. the european union has been nothing but a fucking curse for the handful of strong economies in europe. england, france and germany having to support the rest of the shit on this continent

by millertime Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:42 pm

ascona wrote:afrika will come and save you.

then you no longer have to eet de poo poo

AFRICA

by 911 Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:38 pm

millertime wrote:
ascona wrote:afrika will come and save you.

then you no longer have to eet de poo poo

AFRICA

FUCK THAT.

AFRICA.

by Swerve Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:16 am

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:
Swerve wrote:Germany would be the best of the large economies by far, if only it could be free of supporting the shitty Euros. If I was a hard working German tax payer, I would not be happy bailing out a bunch of lazy Mediterraneans who are only going to continue ruining their economies.

hopefully the euro will fail before we get dragged into it. the european union has been nothing but a fucking curse for the handful of strong economies in europe. england, france and germany having to support the rest of the shit on this continent

I wouldn't put England in the same league as Germany - it would have been screwed regardless and hasn't helped other nations to the extent that Germany is attempting. Germany is ranked second only to China in terms of making tough decisions in good and bad times to keep its economy on track post reunification. It's politicians are actually more impressive than China's because they made those decisions knowing they are at the expense of votes.

by Pennzoil GT-R Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:57 am

Swerve wrote:
Pennzoil GT-R wrote:
Swerve wrote:Germany would be the best of the large economies by far, if only it could be free of supporting the shitty Euros. If I was a hard working German tax payer, I would not be happy bailing out a bunch of lazy Mediterraneans who are only going to continue ruining their economies.

hopefully the euro will fail before we get dragged into it. the european union has been nothing but a fucking curse for the handful of strong economies in europe. england, france and germany having to support the rest of the shit on this continent

I wouldn't put England in the same league as Germany - it would have been screwed regardless and hasn't helped other nations to the extent that Germany is attempting. Germany is ranked second only to China in terms of making tough decisions in good and bad times to keep its economy on track post reunification. It's politicians are actually more impressive than China's because they made those decisions knowing they are at the expense of votes.

The reason Germany is doing that is because they gave up their own currency for the EU. We didnt.

by Swerve Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:55 am

Just making it clear as you seemed to be grouping England with France and Germany. Germany's woes are mainly external, England's internal.

by spaced cowboy Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:55 pm

I don't think we're getting out of this one. We, as consumer whores, have created massive debt levels which can't disappear. And since we socialized the debt losses of the financial sector (because we didn't have a choice due to the combination of late-stage capitalism and Basel II banking rules), we are in for some prolonged pain. Then we get the lovely demographic time bomb that is the baby boomer generation. They didn't save well, and due to their poor diets and living habits, will have large health care costs which they will force society to cover for them (since they have the voting numbers to do so). We'll also be simultaneously transitioning to a post-oil economy facing large-scale water scarcity (which is going to further fuck the US over, as the south-west of the US is generally unsustainable without cheap water coming from somewhere else).

That said, the Chinese aren't going to take over the world. They have massive growth, huge populations, but no access to cheap resources (particularly water and energy). Plus the Chinese have turned their country into a wasteland in the pursuit of economic growth. The Middle East was for several thousand years a resource rich, comfortable land which allowed civilizations to flourish. They exhausted their resources and the area became a desert. The Chinese are doing the same in the space of 50 years.

We're all pretty generally fucked and basically will need to accept that the lifestyle and living standards of our parents is simply not going to happen for us. We have to pick up their tab and save the planet at the same time. The next 20-30 years will be pretty rough economically, if the zombies and the singularity don't get us first...

by Swerve Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:51 am

The Chinese have plenty of access to cheap resources as they slowly buy up every other country's mining companies. And they have their giant dams for water.

Not that they aren't going to be screwed with the rest of us, but they have a population able to save money and conservative economic management.

You're just scared because you're Japanese.

by spaced cowboy Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:41 pm

Swerve wrote:The Chinese have plenty of access to cheap resources as they slowly buy up every other country's mining companies. And they have their giant dams for water.

Not that they aren't going to be screwed with the rest of us, but they have a population able to save money and conservative economic management.

You're just scared because you're Japanese.

They have conservative economic management that produces large scale inefficiencies and resource allocation disasters. China pursued rapid growth through unsustainable low-cost manufacturing and now has to transition from that model to higher-value activities. They will do so, but it's not so easy to do it on the same scale. Especially since as the factory workers demand higher raises, the cost advantage the Chinese had erodes (their masses of cheap human labour vs. the costs of modern robots and factories).

The dams are for electricity, China hasn't had adequate water resources for a long time now, and their food access is problematic too, since the dams ruin large tracts of farmland, and the rest seems to be slowly getting swallowed by the Gobi desert. Then you just need to add in the environmental damage for added flavour.

China's story isn't all roses.

I'm not saying the Japanese aren't fucked (because they have fist fucked themselves with the hand of god), but they're not alone in being up shit creek without a paddle...

by Swerve Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:52 am

You're lucky Japan doesn't provide much in the way of expansionist Lebensraum.
If China's in trouble and the US is in trouble and Japan's in trouble then we have a few problems.

by Turbojett Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:10 pm

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:
Swerve wrote:
Pennzoil GT-R wrote:
Swerve wrote:Germany would be the best of the large economies by far, if only it could be free of supporting the shitty Euros. If I was a hard working German tax payer, I would not be happy bailing out a bunch of lazy Mediterraneans who are only going to continue ruining their economies.

hopefully the euro will fail before we get dragged into it. the european union has been nothing but a fucking curse for the handful of strong economies in europe. england, france and germany having to support the rest of the shit on this continent

I wouldn't put England in the same league as Germany - it would have been screwed regardless and hasn't helped other nations to the extent that Germany is attempting. Germany is ranked second only to China in terms of making tough decisions in good and bad times to keep its economy on track post reunification. It's politicians are actually more impressive than China's because they made those decisions knowing they are at the expense of votes.

The reason Germany is doing that is because they gave up their own currency for the EU. We didnt.

I can't help but think that the fundamental problem with the Euro is that its a common currency shared by several different independent economies. If you're going to have a common currency, then the European Union needs a common unified economy. Otherwise, everybody was just better off keeping their own individual currency.
Euro = bad idea, exacerbated further by poor planning.

by thewalrus Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:19 pm

Turbojett wrote:
Pennzoil GT-R wrote:
Swerve wrote:
Pennzoil GT-R wrote:
Swerve wrote:Germany would be the best of the large economies by far, if only it could be free of supporting the shitty Euros. If I was a hard working German tax payer, I would not be happy bailing out a bunch of lazy Mediterraneans who are only going to continue ruining their economies.

hopefully the euro will fail before we get dragged into it. the european union has been nothing but a fucking curse for the handful of strong economies in europe. england, france and germany having to support the rest of the shit on this continent

I wouldn't put England in the same league as Germany - it would have been screwed regardless and hasn't helped other nations to the extent that Germany is attempting. Germany is ranked second only to China in terms of making tough decisions in good and bad times to keep its economy on track post reunification. It's politicians are actually more impressive than China's because they made those decisions knowing they are at the expense of votes.

The reason Germany is doing that is because they gave up their own currency for the EU. We didnt.
I can't help but think that the fundamental problem with the Euro is that its a common currency shared by several different independent economies. If you're going to have a common currency, then the European Union needs a common unified economy. Otherwise, everybody was just better off keeping their own individual currency.
Euro = bad idea, exacerbated further by poor planning.

All I know is that Canada is a disaster waiting to happen. We've looked pretty good so far, but apparently Canadians carry more personal debt than anyone else on the planet at present. And by a large margin. No savings + lots of debt + no equity = trouble!

The survey also found that almost half of Canadians put aside only five per cent or less of their net income in savings each year.

by Swerve Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:38 pm

I think Australia's in a similar situation. Due in part to a lack of discipline but also because houses are ridiculously expensive compared with income even in rural areas.

by thewalrus Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:42 pm

Swerve wrote:I think Australia's in a similar situation. Due in part to a lack of discipline but also because houses are ridiculously expensive compared with income even in rural areas.

I don't think these reports are necessarily considering housing to be debt for the purposes of personal debt - at least as long as the house maintains it's value and the owners don't load it up with additional mortgages. Which is pretty terrifying. As is this clip from the Globe and Mail - which seems to indicate that not only is personal debt soaring - but people seem to think that's OK.

Household debt in Canada reached a record $1.41-trillion in December. If that was spread among all Canadians, each person would carry more than $41,740 in outstanding debt – an amount 2.5 times greater than 1989 after adjusting for inflation and population growth, according to a report by the Certified General Accountants Association of Canada.

And Canadians are okay with taking on still more debt. Nearly 60 per cent of respondents whose debt had increased through the recession – and 92 per cent whose debt decreased or stayed the same – still felt they could either manage it well or take on more debt.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/canadian-household-debt-soars/article1564658/

by Turbojett Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:44 pm

where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket? Woe

by VS Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:51 pm

Cost of living has been outpacing wages for decades now. I think it hasn't been that perceptible because of cheap goods from overseas and easy credit. Once chinese workers start demanding more money and interest rates go up it's going to get real ugly.

by thewalrus Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:59 pm

VS wrote:Cost of living has been outpacing wages for decades now. I think it hasn't been that perceptible because of cheap goods from overseas and easy credit. Once chinese workers start demanding more money and interest rates go up it's going to get real ugly.

I'm not sure about that - I mean what is a "Cost of Living", how do you assess that? My suspicion is that people are simply demanding more luxuries - they're including more non-essentials in their basic living costs. Big house, big car, big TV, more trips. They're buying it on credit because they think they deserve these luxuries.

I mean shit, when I was growing up my parents bought a new car once a decade. Now people are financing cars they can't afford, and picking up a new one every 2 or 3 years. Same thing with TVs. I was watching a wood grain CRT TV until I started undergrad which was replaced by a newer, slightly larger one in 2000 - and my parents have been using that one ever since. In comparision to some of my younger friends who think it's normal to pick up a newer, better TV every couple years. All on credit. How many people eat at home anymore? Cook their own meals? None of my friends do. They eat out every day, every meal. That shit would have been unheard of even 20 years ago.

I could go on, but the point, I think, is pretty obvious. People are spending way more on useless shit, they're spending it more often, and they're never paying with money they have.

Obviously some of this issue might be genuine cost of living issues, combined with relatively stagnating salaries. But I can't buy the fact that that's the major underlying issue here. People's perspectives have definitely changed. We've definitely become more consumeristic over the last decade or two. There's a greater sense of entitlement.

by VS Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:31 pm

That's what I'm saying though. It's the lackadaisical attitude towards credit in this country that has been masking, or perhaps contributing the stagnation in wages.

I also think that while your example is compelling, it's not a very good sample as your parents are both (i assume) highly educated and fairly well off. It's the bottom half of the workforce that is really suffering as a result of the wage chasm.

by thewalrus Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:36 pm

I mean another good example would be house / condo buying. 20, 30 years ago it would have been unfathomable for someone just out of college to buy a brand new place that's worth 4 or 5 times their salary.

Now it's the status quo. One of the guys I work with just bought a $250 K condo, and he's still in student debt up to his eyebrows while sitting on 20 K of credit card debt. He's barely making minimums on both counts, and now he's taken on the additional responsibility of condo ownership. And that situation isn't unusual at all.

by thewalrus Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:43 pm

VS wrote:That's what I'm saying though. It's the lackadaisical attitude towards credit in this country that has been masking, or perhaps contributing the stagnation in wages.

I also think that while your example is compelling, it's not a very good sample as your parents are both (i assume) highly educated and fairly well off. It's the bottom half of the workforce that is really suffering as a result of the wage chasm.

Well yes and no. It's true that my Dad is highly educated and commands a salary that's higher than the average. But my Mom also stayed at home and raised me (which is why I'm so awesome), so the household income was not that much greater than the average household income.

I still think that a huge issue is the fact that people at all levels of the economic strata are way too concerned with immediate gratification. If you're making 30 K a year, you don't get to have a new car, and you don't get to eat out every other day. Yet society's attitude seems to be that these are expectations at every income level.

I'm really not sure we even disagree, really. Once you get to the lowest paid workers, things go haywire. But there's no excuse for someone making an average salary (or even a lower than average salary) to be in significant debt - to have a debt/income ratio of 148%. And yet it's the middle class, in Canada, which are the biggest personal debt holders.

by VS Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:09 pm

Somewhere along the line the American dream shifted from the idea that 'anyone can work hard and live a decent life' to 'everybody should buy a house'. It's been so distorted and bastardized, in part by poor parenting and a ridiculous sense of entitlement, and in part by credit making entitlement a real thing...albeit with huge pitfalls.

The end result of it all will simply be an ever widening gap between the rich and middle class, unless the current young generations realize that keeping up with the joneses is an impossible task.

The only way I see the US/Canada escaping such a tailspin is to embrace large-scale research and development projects rather than focusing on the bottomline quarter to quarter. I fear we've let our technological lead and educated workforce wither to the point where that might not even be possible any longer.

by thewalrus Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:21 pm

VS wrote:Somewhere along the line the American dream shifted from the idea that 'anyone can work hard and live a decent life' to 'everybody should buy a house'. It's been so distorted and bastardized, in part by poor parenting and a ridiculous sense of entitlement, and in part by credit making entitlement a real thing...albeit with huge pitfalls.

The end result of it all will simply be an ever widening gap between the rich and middle class, unless the current young generations realize that keeping up with the joneses is an impossible task.

The only way I see the US/Canada escaping such a tailspin is to embrace large-scale research and development projects rather than focusing on the bottomline quarter to quarter. I fear we've let our technological lead and educated workforce wither to the point where that might not even be possible any longer.

100% agreed. I don't think it's hopeless. It certainly requires a huge shift in perspective, really, a turn away from materialism - as you've mentioned. Fewer people speculating on what's going to happen, and more people making things happen. Fewer managers, more engineers, etc. etc.

The building blocks are all there in North America. We have some of the worlds best universities and research facilities. Huge amounts of raw resources and infrastructure. And, frankly, relatively well educted populations. We just have to use it.

I see it happening, this recession might make that positive change. I heard recently that personal savings in the US are at their highest level since the Great Depression. That's good. I hope Canadians can follow that lead. Up here we've got a decent economy, bolstered in large part by Alberta's natural resource extraction regime which has led to Canadian feeling a bit invulnerable to the recession that's plagued the rest of the world. We could use that to our advantage, or we could just dig ourselves into a deepr hole.

by VS Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:31 pm

Unfortunately people are so shortsighted that they never prepare for the next bust. What happens to Alberta if the price of oil takes an unexpected nose dive and it's no longer economically feasible to extract it? All those workers with mortgages could go without pay and suddenly the Canadian personal debtload will really rear its ugly head.

by thewalrus Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:36 pm

VS wrote:Unfortunately people are so shortsighted that they never prepare for the next bust. What happens to Alberta if the price of oil takes an unexpected nose dive and it's no longer economically feasible to extract it? All those workers with mortgages could go without pay and suddenly the Canadian personal debtload will really rear its ugly head.

If the oil industry in Alberta collapsed it'd be game over. Those workers are nuts. I can't even fathom how much money they blow through. Their salaries only make up a fraction of what they spend - and they make a good 6 figures a year, easily.

by spaced cowboy Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:11 pm

thewalrus wrote:
Turbojett wrote:
Pennzoil GT-R wrote:
Swerve wrote:
Pennzoil GT-R wrote:
Swerve wrote:Germany would be the best of the large economies by far, if only it could be free of supporting the shitty Euros. If I was a hard working German tax payer, I would not be happy bailing out a bunch of lazy Mediterraneans who are only going to continue ruining their economies.

hopefully the euro will fail before we get dragged into it. the european union has been nothing but a fucking curse for the handful of strong economies in europe. england, france and germany having to support the rest of the shit on this continent

I wouldn't put England in the same league as Germany - it would have been screwed regardless and hasn't helped other nations to the extent that Germany is attempting. Germany is ranked second only to China in terms of making tough decisions in good and bad times to keep its economy on track post reunification. It's politicians are actually more impressive than China's because they made those decisions knowing they are at the expense of votes.

The reason Germany is doing that is because they gave up their own currency for the EU. We didnt.
I can't help but think that the fundamental problem with the Euro is that its a common currency shared by several different independent economies. If you're going to have a common currency, then the European Union needs a common unified economy. Otherwise, everybody was just better off keeping their own individual currency.
Euro = bad idea, exacerbated further by poor planning.

All I know is that Canada is a disaster waiting to happen. We've looked pretty good so far, but apparently Canadians carry more personal debt than anyone else on the planet at present. And by a large margin. No savings + lots of debt + no equity = trouble!

The survey also found that almost half of Canadians put aside only five per cent or less of their net income in savings each year.

Certain areas are going to be a lot harder hit than others. And by certain areas I mean major urban centres with significant property bubbles. I've seen and heard a lot annecdotally that scares the shit out of me.

by thewalrus Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:34 pm

spaced cowboy wrote:
thewalrus wrote:
Turbojett wrote:
Pennzoil GT-R wrote:
Swerve wrote:
Pennzoil GT-R wrote:
Swerve wrote:Germany would be the best of the large economies by far, if only it could be free of supporting the shitty Euros. If I was a hard working German tax payer, I would not be happy bailing out a bunch of lazy Mediterraneans who are only going to continue ruining their economies.

hopefully the euro will fail before we get dragged into it. the european union has been nothing but a fucking curse for the handful of strong economies in europe. england, france and germany having to support the rest of the shit on this continent

I wouldn't put England in the same league as Germany - it would have been screwed regardless and hasn't helped other nations to the extent that Germany is attempting. Germany is ranked second only to China in terms of making tough decisions in good and bad times to keep its economy on track post reunification. It's politicians are actually more impressive than China's because they made those decisions knowing they are at the expense of votes.

The reason Germany is doing that is because they gave up their own currency for the EU. We didnt.
I can't help but think that the fundamental problem with the Euro is that its a common currency shared by several different independent economies. If you're going to have a common currency, then the European Union needs a common unified economy. Otherwise, everybody was just better off keeping their own individual currency.
Euro = bad idea, exacerbated further by poor planning.

All I know is that Canada is a disaster waiting to happen. We've looked pretty good so far, but apparently Canadians carry more personal debt than anyone else on the planet at present. And by a large margin. No savings + lots of debt + no equity = trouble!

The survey also found that almost half of Canadians put aside only five per cent or less of their net income in savings each year.

Certain areas are going to be a lot harder hit than others. And by certain areas I mean major urban centres with significant property bubbles. I've seen and heard a lot annecdotally that scares the shit out of me.

I've been toying with the idea of buying a place next year, and, honestly, I'm thinking that the best bet might be to just stockpile cash in TFSAs / GIC for the moment - buy something in a couple years with a 20% down payment if I'm inclined - but I'm really not convinced that it's smart to be putting 5% down on a condo right now. And being completely without any cash. I've heard a lot of people say that we're about to be hit by a second property bubble burst.

by Swerve Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:18 am

thewalrus wrote:I mean shit, when I was growing up my parents bought a new car once a decade. Now people are financing cars they can't afford, and picking up a new one every 2 or 3 years. Same thing with TVs. I was watching a wood grain CRT TV until I started undergrad which was replaced by a newer, slightly larger one in 2000 - and my parents have been using that one ever since. In comparision to some of my younger friends who think it's normal to pick up a newer, better TV every couple years. All on credit. How many people eat at home anymore? Cook their own meals? None of my friends do. They eat out every day, every meal. That shit would have been unheard of even 20 years ago.

I hadn't thought about it, but that's all true. I remember in the 90s finding it incredible that Japan landfills were full of two year old tvs that had been upgraded. Now the rest of the world has dumps full of CRTs.
The average age of cars on Australian roads went from 9 years to 5 years over the last decade. Which I guess helps save lives due to safety features (although our authorities claim fewer deaths are all down to speed cameras).
Cars have gotten very funky lately, cashing in on the exact sort of people who finance everything.

by thewalrus Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:02 pm

Swerve wrote:
Cars have gotten very funky lately, cashing in on the exact sort of people who finance everything.

Yeah, I remember back in the 80s and 90s when my parents would buy a car - they'd walk into the dealer with enough cash available to buy the car outright, and usually, because the dealer didn't like dealing with the banks, they'd give you a healthy discount.

Now, with all the inhouse financing available those discounts are non-existent. They'd much rather you sign up for a 5, 6, 7 or even 8(!) year loan. I mean shit, who takes out an 8 year loan on a car. Mother of God.

by thewalrus Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:21 pm

Just as a continuation of this general topic, I just found out last night that a second friend has over $15 000 in credit card debt alone. I mean that's two people that I personally know with that kind of insanity. Both intelligent, hard working, well educated people. Both of whom have somehow managed to accrue, what I would have though to be unimaginable (and unsustainable) levels of credit card debt. And who are willing to admit to it. You have to wonder how many people are in the same situation, but are, frankly, too embarrassed to talk about it.

Of course the root of the problem are these banks who are more than happy to extend huge credit limits to university students with no income and less maturity.

by VS Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:18 pm

I have 1 credit card that gets paid off in full every month. I know a few people that just haphazardly buy gadgets and shit and then pay a little bit over the minimum balance on the card. It's insane, and even better is that the credit companies have software to look out for this behavior and extend credit limits/offer new cards.

by thewalrus Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:38 pm

VS wrote:I have 1 credit card that gets paid off in full every month. I know a few people that just haphazardly buy gadgets and shit and then pay a little bit over the minimum balance on the card. It's insane, and even better is that the credit companies have software to look out for this behavior and extend credit limits/offer new cards.

This is the most amazing thing to me. One of my friends with massive CC debt was saying the same thing. Even when he was in undergrad, and still wallowing under 10, 15 thousand in debt on his card, he'd be constantly granted increases to his limit. He even called in once, to ask for a reduction in his interest rate, and they said: "Sorry, sir, but our records indicate that you're too high of a risk to qualify for a low rate, we can, however, offer to increase your limit by $5000." (or some huge amount)

I mean. Holy shit. That's just mind boggling.

by JaysonAych Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:03 pm

I have about $20,000 in credit card debt right now :unsure:

I paid off my car loan last year and my student loans this year so the two credit cards I have are all the debt I have left and that extra money can toward the cards, but it's still a lot to deal with. My rates used to be pretty low, but all the credit card companies in the last couple of years have started hiking up their rates and nixing fixed rate plans, so I'm trying to work on getting things paid off now that all my other debts are taken care of, but it's a slow-going road.

by Pennzoil GT-R Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:54 pm

2 people:

person 1: racked up $100,000 a credit card debt...declared himself bankrupt and refused to pay anything off. convicted of fraud, drug possession and theft. took out a credit card and offered a $10,000 limit straight away.

person 2: never had a loan, never had any debt or record of any kind whatsoever. pays off current account overdraft every month for past ~10 years without fail. takes out a credit card and offered a $1000 limit.

how on earth does that make any sense?

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