i think we are getting close to armageddon

man we are so fucked.

number 1 purchases in america right now are safes and guns. not a joke.

s&p 500 is poised to break through the oct lows

GM is blowing up; trying to get handouts from the gov't. they're going to file for bankruptcy most likely. i don't see any way around it, barring more gov't money.

this shit isn't even funny any longer. now i'm going to have to get a gun.

When for over 25 years you build an economy on phony money, created by debt, accelerated thanks to men like Greenspan and Graham in the late 90s and championed by Bush Co. and a rubber stamp Congress in the 2000's well you get the explosion in your face. The fact that the greed hands still think they can, deserve and will be able to make and/or walk away with millions or billions when the house of cards is collapsing makes it all worse.

But lets truly hope we find rock bottom soon. I hope rock bottom is found by this winter and then atleast hope beginning with Obama (who is no messiah but may be a step in the right direction) some fresh new faces and minds to where we begin to lay the more solid foundation of true regulated capitalism where we have traffic cops so to speak in the govt. as they re-regulate and where we reshape our model of growth based on the fact we live in a finite world with a finite value and not infinite growth in an finite world which is the disaster we are seeing unfold today. Reshape the new capitalism by re-embracing inventiveness, ingenuity, the making and selling of real products and real services while having safety nets and other types of protections. Add a change in mindset that Joe the plumber and all others need not feel they must have everything and anything peddled to them in order to have a decent or even great life. We must reward companies who are progressive and who try to do better and not just make a profit or worse create a phony economy based on over-leveraged money that never really existed and is not backed up by anything in reality.

YES WE CAN!

Aristotle wrote:man we are so fucked.

number 1 purchases in america right now are safes and guns. not a joke.

s&p 500 is poised to break through the oct lows

GM is blowing up; trying to get handouts from the gov't. they're going to file for bankruptcy most likely. i don't see any way around it, barring more gov't money.

this shit isn't even funny any longer. now i'm going to have to get a gun.

Les_Vipers_rule wrote:When for over 25 years you build an economy on phony money, created by debt, accelerated thanks to men like Greenspan and Graham in the late 90s and championed by Bush Co. and a rubber stamp Congress in the 2000's well you get the explosion in your face. The fact that the greed hands still think they can, deserve and will be able to make and/or walk away with millions or billions when the house of cards is collapsing makes it all worse.

But lets truly hope we find rock bottom soon. I hope rock bottom is found by this winter and then atleast hope beginning with Obama (who is no messiah but may be a step in the right direction) some fresh new faces and minds to where we begin to lay the more solid foundation of true regulated capitalism where we have traffic cops so to speak in the govt. as they re-regulate and where we reshape our model of growth based on the fact we live in a finite world with a finite value and not infinite growth in an finite world which is the disaster we are seeing unfold today. Reshape the new capitalism by re-embracing inventiveness, ingenuity, the making and selling of real products and real services while having safety nets and other types of protections. Add a change in mindset that Joe the plumber and all others need not feel they must have everything and anything peddled to them in order to have a decent or even great life. We must reward companies who are progressive and who try to do better and not just make a profit or worse create a phony economy based on over-leveraged money that never really existed and is not backed up by anything in reality.

YES WE CAN!

all that effort to type out and noone will ever read it

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

Les_Vipers_rule wrote:When for over 25 years you build an economy on phony money, created by debt, accelerated thanks to men like Greenspan and Graham in the late 90s and championed by Bush Co. and a rubber stamp Congress in the 2000's well you get the explosion in your face. The fact that the greed hands still think they can, deserve and will be able to make and/or walk away with millions or billions when the house of cards is collapsing makes it all worse.

But lets truly hope we find rock bottom soon. I hope rock bottom is found by this winter and then atleast hope beginning with Obama (who is no messiah but may be a step in the right direction) some fresh new faces and minds to where we begin to lay the more solid foundation of true regulated capitalism where we have traffic cops so to speak in the govt. as they re-regulate and where we reshape our model of growth based on the fact we live in a finite world with a finite value and not infinite growth in an finite world which is the disaster we are seeing unfold today. Reshape the new capitalism by re-embracing inventiveness, ingenuity, the making and selling of real products and real services while having safety nets and other types of protections. Add a change in mindset that Joe the plumber and all others need not feel they must have everything and anything peddled to them in order to have a decent or even great life. We must reward companies who are progressive and who try to do better and not just make a profit or worse create a phony economy based on over-leveraged money that never really existed and is not backed up by anything in reality.

YES WE CAN!

all that effort to type out and noone will ever read it

Actually, I read it, and he makes good points.

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

Les_Vipers_rule wrote:When for over 25 years you build an economy on phony money, created by debt, accelerated thanks to men like Greenspan and Graham in the late 90s and championed by Bush Co. and a rubber stamp Congress in the 2000's well you get the explosion in your face. The fact that the greed hands still think they can, deserve and will be able to make and/or walk away with millions or billions when the house of cards is collapsing makes it all worse.

But lets truly hope we find rock bottom soon. I hope rock bottom is found by this winter and then atleast hope beginning with Obama (who is no messiah but may be a step in the right direction) some fresh new faces and minds to where we begin to lay the more solid foundation of true regulated capitalism where we have traffic cops so to speak in the govt. as they re-regulate and where we reshape our model of growth based on the fact we live in a finite world with a finite value and not infinite growth in an finite world which is the disaster we are seeing unfold today. Reshape the new capitalism by re-embracing inventiveness, ingenuity, the making and selling of real products and real services while having safety nets and other types of protections. Add a change in mindset that Joe the plumber and all others need not feel they must have everything and anything peddled to them in order to have a decent or even great life. We must reward companies who are progressive and who try to do better and not just make a profit or worse create a phony economy based on over-leveraged money that never really existed and is not backed up by anything in reality.

YES WE CAN!

all that effort to type out and noone will ever read it

Well you either read it or by not reading it before you posted shows maybe your lack of care and understanding. Only a fool will make a comment on things he /she has not read or understood.

a fool or an internet forum regular.
srsly.

mos def

and yes les you usually do make some decent points but you go about it in the wrong way. we already know you hate bush and capitalism, so stop reminding us in every post and i wouldnt say a word

I do not hate the concept of capitalism, but unfettered capitalism is what has brought us the the bad situation we see today. All things in life require some form of good regulation. BTW it's not about Bush, he is just another cog in the mess we see but it's about the whole crap of it going back to Reaganomics and Milton Friedman now obviously discredited ideals.

Govt. has a role to play in the functioning of all aspects in society, as long as what the govt. does is tested and is just, it works. Taking away the cops so to speak to protect us in all areas of life leads to mayhem and this is what the economy has now wittnessed.

there's a simple solution here: outlaw derivatives. the end. they're the sole reason we're in this mess. if derivatives hadn't existed, we wouldn't have given mortgages to millions of deadbeats and built years of extra housing inventory for them.

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:and yes les you usually do make some decent points but you go about it in the wrong way. we already know you hate bush and capitalism, so stop reminding us in every post and i wouldnt say a word

I'm pretty sure capitalism does not mean a complete country living on loans....

You should at least,from a European point, agree that America has a fucked up system,money wise.
It's not normal you can drive a new car,and never own it,and pay something like what,300 dollar a month when you're 16.
It's also not normal people start to worry about theit credit rating when they are 16,and start making debts,to show they can pay them.

Pete.Z wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:and yes les you usually do make some decent points but you go about it in the wrong way. we already know you hate bush and capitalism, so stop reminding us in every post and i wouldnt say a word

I'm pretty sure capitalism does not mean a complete country living on loans....

You should at least,from a European point, agree that America has a fucked up system,money wise.
It's not normal you can drive a new car,and never own it,and pay something like what,300 dollar a month when you're 16.
It's also not normal people start to worry about theit credit rating when they are 16,and start making debts,to show they can pay them.

im not disagreeing with anything here...im simply pointing out that les doesnt need to link every post back to 'bush is bad'


the credit system has been bewildering me for years...i just cant fathom the sense in having something on credit just because you cant wait until you can afford it. storm was particularly bad for it. he must be fucked right about now

Aristotle wrote:there's a simple solution here: outlaw derivatives. the end. they're the sole reason we're in this mess. if derivatives hadn't existed, we wouldn't have given mortgages to millions of deadbeats and built years of extra housing inventory for them.

swaps are the evil in this whole mess no doubt, but it would be impossible to outlaw them. theres something like $500 billion still outstanding in various derivs. we just need to mitigate the risk and put tighter controls on how much risk banks can expose themselves to. as i said in the other thread, its not wall street thats caused this mess, its the retail banks out in the sticks buying all these futures and credit swaps and god knows whatever else without fully understanding what they were getting themselves in to.

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

Pete.Z wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:and yes les you usually do make some decent points but you go about it in the wrong way. we already know you hate bush and capitalism, so stop reminding us in every post and i wouldnt say a word

I'm pretty sure capitalism does not mean a complete country living on loans....

You should at least,from a European point, agree that America has a fucked up system,money wise.
It's not normal you can drive a new car,and never own it,and pay something like what,300 dollar a month when you're 16.
It's also not normal people start to worry about theit credit rating when they are 16,and start making debts,to show they can pay them.

im not disagreeing with anything here...im simply pointing out that les doesnt need to link every post back to 'bush is bad'


the credit system has been bewildering me for years...i just cant fathom the sense in having something on credit just because you cant wait until you can afford it. storm was particularly bad for it. he must be fucked right about now

Why would he be fucked. I've got a metric fuck-tonne of debt and I haven't been affected in the slightest.

the banks were fucking morons, for sure, but wall st also wrote a bunch of swaps that they never had a chance of being able to fulfill. if i paid you only a flat-rate $500 to insure the full value of my ferrari against any possible problem in the future, would you take liability? hell no, you wouldn't. that's what firms like LEH did, and that's why LEH is gone now -- everyone's ferrari turned out to be a kia with bodywork.

the ratings agencies have also made themselves obsolete, because they gave these shitty tranches high ratings, which led to the LEHs of the world selling vastly under-priced swaps for a liability they couldn't understand.

it did all start at the investment banks and hedge funds, however. they've been writing swaps for years. this time they overwrote, and it then cascaded into the rest of the market, which was built on giving loans to deadbeats under the assumption that there was enough insurance to keep everyone protected. that led to the artificially high home values, helocs, arms, and on and on.

dunnas wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

Pete.Z wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:and yes les you usually do make some decent points but you go about it in the wrong way. we already know you hate bush and capitalism, so stop reminding us in every post and i wouldnt say a word

I'm pretty sure capitalism does not mean a complete country living on loans....

You should at least,from a European point, agree that America has a fucked up system,money wise.
It's not normal you can drive a new car,and never own it,and pay something like what,300 dollar a month when you're 16.
It's also not normal people start to worry about theit credit rating when they are 16,and start making debts,to show they can pay them.

im not disagreeing with anything here...im simply pointing out that les doesnt need to link every post back to 'bush is bad'


the credit system has been bewildering me for years...i just cant fathom the sense in having something on credit just because you cant wait until you can afford it. storm was particularly bad for it. he must be fucked right about now

Why would he be fucked. I've got a metric fuck-tonne of debt and I haven't been affected in the slightest.

not even when int rates went through the roof?

oddly, my credit cards didn't change much re: rates. when libor shot up, i expected them to go through the roof, but they didn't.

i dont have a credit card so didnt see the rates on them. i just assumed they would have followed the base rates

usually they do to a degree. most are adjustable rates based on the libor. i haven't looked at the details of mine, but maybe it's a fixed rate or something.

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

dunnas wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

Pete.Z wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:and yes les you usually do make some decent points but you go about it in the wrong way. we already know you hate bush and capitalism, so stop reminding us in every post and i wouldnt say a word

I'm pretty sure capitalism does not mean a complete country living on loans....

You should at least,from a European point, agree that America has a fucked up system,money wise.
It's not normal you can drive a new car,and never own it,and pay something like what,300 dollar a month when you're 16.
It's also not normal people start to worry about theit credit rating when they are 16,and start making debts,to show they can pay them.

im not disagreeing with anything here...im simply pointing out that les doesnt need to link every post back to 'bush is bad'


the credit system has been bewildering me for years...i just cant fathom the sense in having something on credit just because you cant wait until you can afford it. storm was particularly bad for it. he must be fucked right about now

Why would he be fucked. I've got a metric fuck-tonne of debt and I haven't been affected in the slightest.

not even when int rates went through the roof?

Well if I had a home loan i'd be fucked, but a few % extra on my credit cards doesn't really hurt (few hundred bucks a year), and my personal loan is fixed, as i'd imagine storms would be.

dunnas wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

dunnas wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

Pete.Z wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:and yes les you usually do make some decent points but you go about it in the wrong way. we already know you hate bush and capitalism, so stop reminding us in every post and i wouldnt say a word

I'm pretty sure capitalism does not mean a complete country living on loans....

You should at least,from a European point, agree that America has a fucked up system,money wise.
It's not normal you can drive a new car,and never own it,and pay something like what,300 dollar a month when you're 16.
It's also not normal people start to worry about theit credit rating when they are 16,and start making debts,to show they can pay them.

im not disagreeing with anything here...im simply pointing out that les doesnt need to link every post back to 'bush is bad'


the credit system has been bewildering me for years...i just cant fathom the sense in having something on credit just because you cant wait until you can afford it. storm was particularly bad for it. he must be fucked right about now

Why would he be fucked. I've got a metric fuck-tonne of debt and I haven't been affected in the slightest.

not even when int rates went through the roof?

Well if I had a home loan i'd be fucked, but a few % extra on my credit cards doesn't really hurt (few hundred bucks a year), and my personal loan is fixed, as i'd imagine storms would be.

It's exact that attitude what is killing the economy.

the us is going to be the next japan. we've hit the wall. everyone is going to have to file for bankruptcy.

Pete.Z wrote:

dunnas wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

dunnas wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

Pete.Z wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:and yes les you usually do make some decent points but you go about it in the wrong way. we already know you hate bush and capitalism, so stop reminding us in every post and i wouldnt say a word

I'm pretty sure capitalism does not mean a complete country living on loans....

You should at least,from a European point, agree that America has a fucked up system,money wise.
It's not normal you can drive a new car,and never own it,and pay something like what,300 dollar a month when you're 16.
It's also not normal people start to worry about theit credit rating when they are 16,and start making debts,to show they can pay them.

im not disagreeing with anything here...im simply pointing out that les doesnt need to link every post back to 'bush is bad'


the credit system has been bewildering me for years...i just cant fathom the sense in having something on credit just because you cant wait until you can afford it. storm was particularly bad for it. he must be fucked right about now

Why would he be fucked. I've got a metric fuck-tonne of debt and I haven't been affected in the slightest.

not even when int rates went through the roof?

Well if I had a home loan i'd be fucked, but a few % extra on my credit cards doesn't really hurt (few hundred bucks a year), and my personal loan is fixed, as i'd imagine storms would be.

It's exact that attitude what is killing the economy.

Ok. I'll change my attitude.

Oh my god, the interest rate on my credit card went up a few % over the last couple of years. I'm doomed I tell you, doomed. Shoot me now.

Is that better.

Aristotle wrote:man we are so fucked.

number 1 purchases in america right now are safes and guns. not a joke.

s&p 500 is poised to break through the oct lows

GM is blowing up; trying to get handouts from the gov't. they're going to file for bankruptcy most likely. i don't see any way around it, barring more gov't money.

this shit isn't even funny any longer. now i'm going to have to get a gun.

GM has been bleeding cash for like a decade.... why can't they surface?

Aristotle wrote:oddly, my credit cards didn't change much re: rates. when libor shot up, i expected them to go through the roof, but they didn't.

Yeah, mine has stayed steady. My general rule of thumb for credit cards is to never have more on it than I can afford to pay off with one paycheck. Meaning, less than $600 or so. I haven't always held to that, but I'm getting better.

Christmas always sucks though. Should have saved more money.

dunnas wrote:

Pete.Z wrote:

dunnas wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

dunnas wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

Pete.Z wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:and yes les you usually do make some decent points but you go about it in the wrong way. we already know you hate bush and capitalism, so stop reminding us in every post and i wouldnt say a word

I'm pretty sure capitalism does not mean a complete country living on loans....

You should at least,from a European point, agree that America has a fucked up system,money wise.
It's not normal you can drive a new car,and never own it,and pay something like what,300 dollar a month when you're 16.
It's also not normal people start to worry about theit credit rating when they are 16,and start making debts,to show they can pay them.

im not disagreeing with anything here...im simply pointing out that les doesnt need to link every post back to 'bush is bad'


the credit system has been bewildering me for years...i just cant fathom the sense in having something on credit just because you cant wait until you can afford it. storm was particularly bad for it. he must be fucked right about now

Why would he be fucked. I've got a metric fuck-tonne of debt and I haven't been affected in the slightest.

not even when int rates went through the roof?

Well if I had a home loan i'd be fucked, but a few % extra on my credit cards doesn't really hurt (few hundred bucks a year), and my personal loan is fixed, as i'd imagine storms would be.

It's exact that attitude what is killing the economy.

Ok. I'll change my attitude.

Oh my god, the interest rate on my credit card went up a few % over the last couple of years. I'm doomed I tell you, doomed. Shoot me now.

Is that better.

I think that's still a fairly reckless attitude. I tend to be pretty conservative with money though.

The_Edge wrote:

Aristotle wrote:man we are so fucked.

number 1 purchases in america right now are safes and guns. not a joke.

s&p 500 is poised to break through the oct lows

GM is blowing up; trying to get handouts from the gov't. they're going to file for bankruptcy most likely. i don't see any way around it, barring more gov't money.

this shit isn't even funny any longer. now i'm going to have to get a gun.

GM has been bleeding cash for like a decade.... why can't they surface?

labor unions and pensions were the original problem. then there was the shitty cars they were building that no one wanted; then there was their financing division (GMAC), which bought a bunch of sub-prime mortgage garbage. it's just snowballed from there.

i mean, seriously, what kind of idiot car manufacturer buys sub-prime mortgage products? that's just asinine.

Just remember, its a recession until you lose your job. Then I laugh at you...unless its me who loses the job, then I'm fucked!!

just make sure you have shotguns and plenty of bullets.

i can only imagine what must be going on at stormfront.org right now

they're probably building tanks or something.

Pete.Z wrote:

dunnas wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

dunnas wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

Pete.Z wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:and yes les you usually do make some decent points but you go about it in the wrong way. we already know you hate bush and capitalism, so stop reminding us in every post and i wouldnt say a word

I'm pretty sure capitalism does not mean a complete country living on loans....

You should at least,from a European point, agree that America has a fucked up system,money wise.
It's not normal you can drive a new car,and never own it,and pay something like what,300 dollar a month when you're 16.
It's also not normal people start to worry about theit credit rating when they are 16,and start making debts,to show they can pay them.

im not disagreeing with anything here...im simply pointing out that les doesnt need to link every post back to 'bush is bad'


the credit system has been bewildering me for years...i just cant fathom the sense in having something on credit just because you cant wait until you can afford it. storm was particularly bad for it. he must be fucked right about now

Why would he be fucked. I've got a metric fuck-tonne of debt and I haven't been affected in the slightest.

not even when int rates went through the roof?

Well if I had a home loan i'd be fucked, but a few % extra on my credit cards doesn't really hurt (few hundred bucks a year), and my personal loan is fixed, as i'd imagine storms would be.

It's exact that attitude what is killing the economy.

It's actually overreaction in the other direction now that's killing the economy.

This cycle has been going on since the 1800s and I think the Europeans might be in a worse position that the US. Hopefully, some good things can come out of this. Such as an end of mark to market accounting. Do US company annual reports even list a cash flow summary?

haha yeah, they have cash flow in the SEC filings.

the mark to market thing is kind of stupid. between that and the completely inept ratings agencies, it's been a party.

also, the reality of the china scam is starting to surface. fuck them.

everyone in the US thinks we're moving toward another great depression. it's doubtful that will happen, but a rough recession will continue for a few years. naturally that means the gov't is going to start spending wildly and running up the deficits even more.

haaa

[img][/img]

lol