Great video on why the whole monetary system is going to fail.

Money as debt


Some may remember me talking about this stuff many years ago on the old AF.


Too bad 9/10 people have no clue about it all as described in the video. I learned about stuff and gave much thought to it all during often free time I had going back to the early 90's I have discussed and discuss this with people but eyes soon glaze over.

This why the US govt. and taxpayer will eventually BORROW over $1T+ more to bail out the flawed system that has been hi-lited by the mortgage crisis. If ever there was time for ALL society in ALL nations to discuss this frankly as the well laid out video displayed here IS now. The inevitable world financial crash will happen and very soon. As the narrator said in the video tinkering solves nothing but only delays the inevitable making the inevitable pain much worse. The whole system has been built of greed, lies, fear and keeping Joe Q. Public totally IGNORANT! It's too bad that we are willing to pay for it all with the shrinking quality of our own lives and labours.

Even some here believe they are worth something monetarily but they are not. Lets use a simple example.

Joe Q Public has a mortgage say $300,000.00 lets not bother to factor in his car loans, credit cards and maybe business loans. He thinks he is well off playing in the system because he may be paid or otherwise earn oh lets say $60,000.00 (avg. income for most Americans) for his labour. His mortgage will grow on avg. THREEFOLD by the time it is paid off so it will eventually cost him $900,000.00 say over 25 years. But he is duped into thinking his home will always have greater and growing worth/value than the debt service by the mortgage. But where he fails to see is that his home's possible growth in worth is not guaranteed and is merely a ideal based on nothing but a subjective test to the past market growth of housing prices. But we have seen home value plummet before in history and we are seeing it in the USA right now. About 1/3 Americans have homes worth less than the mortgage is. They think they may have NET WORTH based on having an growing asset but this said asset is shrinking in worth to the cost of the loan, they are merely MORE IMPOVERISHED! compared to the guy/gal who may not have it. But these people cannot or will not accept that, so they believe the home will rebound and grow more in worth. Maybe it will maybe say for argument (BTW this is all kept simple to make a point) the house value initially falls from say $300,000.00 to $200,000.00 tomorrow. They still owe the $300,000.00 + interest but thankfully for them right now they still make the $60,000.00 per year and keep their head above water. They think the house will rebound in due time and say it does, say it rebounds over 25 years its worth now triples of its devalued price of $200,000.00 to now $600,000.00. Joe Cougs Public sees his house that he paid say $300,000.00 25 years earlier has doubled (tripled in its rebound from the crash to $200,000.00 25 years earlier) But, Joe Q. Public has paid his mortgage off 3 times based on $300,000.00 + interest and that cost him $900,000.00 so in the end Joe Q. Public is $300,000.00 Poorer than before he bought his house 25 years earlier. Now of course this example is based on assumptions but these are not unrealistic assumptions. Joe Q Public still thinks he's better off and has positive net worth but in fact he is more impoverished just on this one example than he was 25 years earlier. Lets not even look at car loans, school loans, business loans and lost monies he put in savings and possible lost investment put on the markets.

So going back to the topic at hand why the US govt. wants to borrow over $1T plus to keep the debt monster from swallowing the system. It is pervasive and in the end UNTENABLE!. It will not work as the society will go broke first and all society will collapse. Just as the narrator in the video said. This requires firstly an education of the people WORLD WIDE and a frank discussion as to who is to blame (bankers,lenders and govt. through its complicity) and what shall we do. The one thing is doing nothing to change the WHOLE WORLD FINANCIAL/ECONOMIC SYSTEM will not stop it from failing nor freeing us. It's only like the sweep hand on clock or watch, tick, tick, tick, tick away to inevitable COLLAPSE.

Les_Vipers_rule wrote:Money as debt


Some may remember me talking about this stuff many years ago on the old AF.


Too bad 9/10 people have no clue about it all as described in the video. I learned about stuff and gave much thought to it all during often free time I had going back to the early 90's I have discussed and discuss this with people but eyes soon glaze over.

This why the US govt. and taxpayer will eventually BORROW over $1T+ more to bail out the flawed system that has been hi-lited by the mortgage crisis. If ever there was time for ALL society in ALL nations to discuss this frankly as the well laid out video displayed here IS now. The inevitable world financial crash will happen and very soon. As the narrator said in the video tinkering solves nothing but only delays the inevitable making the inevitable pain much worse. The whole system has been built of greed, lies, fear and keeping Joe Q. Public totally IGNORANT! It's too bad that we are willing to pay for it all with the shrinking quality of our own lives and labours.

Even some here believe they are worth something monetarily but they are not. Lets use a simple example.

Joe Q Public has a mortgage say $300,000.00 lets not bother to factor in his car loans, credit cards and maybe business loans. He thinks he is well off playing in the system because he may be paid or otherwise earn oh lets say $60,000.00 (avg. income for most Americans) for his labour. His mortgage will grow on avg. THREEFOLD by the time it is paid off so it will eventually cost him $900,000.00 say over 25 years. But he is duped into thinking his home will always have greater and growing worth/value than the debt service by the mortgage. But where he fails to see is that his home's possible growth in worth is not guaranteed and is merely a ideal based on nothing but a subjective test to the past market growth of housing prices. But we have seen home value plummet before in history and we are seeing it in the USA right now. About 1/3 Americans have homes worth less than the mortgage is. They think they may have NET WORTH based on having an growing asset but this said asset is shrinking in worth to the cost of the loan, they are merely MORE IMPOVERISHED! compared to the guy/gal who may not have it. But these people cannot or will not accept that, so they believe the home will rebound and grow more in worth. Maybe it will maybe say for argument (BTW this is all kept simple to make a point) the house value initially falls from say $300,000.00 to $200,000.00 tomorrow. They still owe the $300,000.00 + interest but thankfully for them right now they still make the $60,000.00 per year and keep their head above water. They think the house will rebound in due time and say it does, say it rebounds over 25 years its worth now triples of its devalued price of $200,000.00 to now $600,000.00. Joe Cougs Public sees his house that he paid say $300,000.00 25 years earlier has doubled (tripled in its rebound from the crash to $200,000.00 25 years earlier) But, Joe Q. Public has paid his mortgage off 3 times based on $300,000.00 + interest and that cost him $900,000.00 so in the end Joe Q. Public is $300,000.00 Poorer than before he bought his house 25 years earlier. Now of course this example is based on assumptions but these are not unrealistic assumptions. Joe Q Public still thinks he's better off and has positive net worth but in fact he is more impoverished just on this one example than he was 25 years earlier. Lets not even look at car loans, school loans, business loans and lost monies he put in savings and possible lost investment put on the markets.

So going back to the topic at hand why the US govt. wants to borrow over $1T plus to keep the debt monster from swallowing the system. It is pervasive and in the end UNTENABLE!. It will not work as the society will go broke first and all society will collapse. Just as the narrator in the video said. This requires firstly an education of the people WORLD WIDE and a frank discussion as to who is to blame (bankers,lenders and govt. through its complicity) and what shall we do. The one thing is doing nothing to change the WHOLE WORLD FINANCIAL/ECONOMIC SYSTEM will not stop it from failing nor freeing us. It's only like the sweep hand on clock or watch, tick, tick, tick, tick away to inevitable COLLAPSE.

I'm not reading this shit.

You want USA/Dollar to fail so much you'll have a multiple orgasm if it happens.

Move to russia. Now.




Yes I'm drunk

I did not make the video on the monetary system so I do not know where you drunkenly coming from here.

what john q public ie you fails to understand is that a recession is good for you. it clears out all the crap and makes way for fresh growth. the economy moves in cycles and this is really the first time we have desperately tried to stave off the downturn...

Les_Vipers_rule wrote:I did not make the video on the monetary system so I do not know where you drunkenly coming from here.

Dude, you're always announcing america's downfall, the collapse of the dollar, the death of uncle sam, etc etc.

I said nothing about American downfall, I linked a video on the flawed monetary system the world has been using for many years now. The video shows how the monetary system is ultimately though probably not originally seen as such designed to fail and fail any and every country. The fact the USA is the largest economy at the time means it's the lynch pin of the failure and we see the crisis in the US today if you look at it through the eyes as painted by the video linked by me you see it's not really about sub-prime mortgages, they are a symptom. It is about the USA no longer remaining solvent and that they in Washington in Wallstreet and in other nations can try to tinker with this but no more tinkering will work. We are on the edge of a momentous time in history, nothing seen like what is to likely unfold before us in the last 1000 years.

It is interesting that every major religion on earth noted that usury is a SIN and it will be that usury that will be our global economic meltdown and it may come sooner than you think.

On CNN yesterday an economist noted that the $700 Billion (don't forget the govt. has already given $500B) if given to lenders in a bailout is suppose to free up credit, he noted that it may not as lenders are all terrified of lending money noting that they may not trust anyone being able to pay it back.

Interesting times appear for us all.

I must say...that every single time I see any of your posts. I don't even read them. Not because that I think that you fell the need to impress people on af so that one of them god willing will go on a mandate with you. Or that I think that your parents failed to give you the love and support you needed as a child. Or that you repost shit someone else said in a vain and failed attempt to make you look smarter. The real reason I don't read your post. Is they are too fucking long. Learn to get to the point mother fucker.

I hear what you are saying, but that "$300,000 poorer" is a lot less than he would have had to pay for his rent.

Les_Vipers_rule wrote:Money as debt


Some may remember me talking about this stuff many years ago on the old AF.


Too bad 9/10 people have no clue about it all as described in the video. I learned about stuff and gave much thought to it all during often free time I had going back to the early 90's I have discussed and discuss this with people but eyes soon glaze over.

This why the US govt. and taxpayer will eventually BORROW over $1T+ more to bail out the flawed system that has been hi-lited by the mortgage crisis. If ever there was time for ALL society in ALL nations to discuss this frankly as the well laid out video displayed here IS now. The inevitable world financial crash will happen and very soon. As the narrator said in the video tinkering solves nothing but only delays the inevitable making the inevitable pain much worse. The whole system has been built of greed, lies, fear and keeping Joe Q. Public totally IGNORANT! It's too bad that we are willing to pay for it all with the shrinking quality of our own lives and labours.

Even some here believe they are worth something monetarily but they are not. Lets use a simple example.

Joe Q Public has a mortgage say $300,000.00 lets not bother to factor in his car loans, credit cards and maybe business loans. He thinks he is well off playing in the system because he may be paid or otherwise earn oh lets say $60,000.00 (avg. income for most Americans) for his labour. His mortgage will grow on avg. THREEFOLD by the time it is paid off so it will eventually cost him $900,000.00 say over 25 years. But he is duped into thinking his home will always have greater and growing worth/value than the debt service by the mortgage. But where he fails to see is that his home's possible growth in worth is not guaranteed and is merely a ideal based on nothing but a subjective test to the past market growth of housing prices. But we have seen home value plummet before in history and we are seeing it in the USA right now. About 1/3 Americans have homes worth less than the mortgage is. They think they may have NET WORTH based on having an growing asset but this said asset is shrinking in worth to the cost of the loan, they are merely MORE IMPOVERISHED! compared to the guy/gal who may not have it. But these people cannot or will not accept that, so they believe the home will rebound and grow more in worth. Maybe it will maybe say for argument (BTW this is all kept simple to make a point) the house value initially falls from say $300,000.00 to $200,000.00 tomorrow. They still owe the $300,000.00 + interest but thankfully for them right now they still make the $60,000.00 per year and keep their head above water. They think the house will rebound in due time and say it does, say it rebounds over 25 years its worth now triples of its devalued price of $200,000.00 to now $600,000.00. Joe Cougs Public sees his house that he paid say $300,000.00 25 years earlier has doubled (tripled in its rebound from the crash to $200,000.00 25 years earlier) But, Joe Q. Public has paid his mortgage off 3 times based on $300,000.00 + interest and that cost him $900,000.00 so in the end Joe Q. Public is $300,000.00 Poorer than before he bought his house 25 years earlier. Now of course this example is based on assumptions but these are not unrealistic assumptions. Joe Q Public still thinks he's better off and has positive net worth but in fact he is more impoverished just on this one example than he was 25 years earlier. Lets not even look at car loans, school loans, business loans and lost monies he put in savings and possible lost investment put on the markets.

So going back to the topic at hand why the US govt. wants to borrow over $1T plus to keep the debt monster from swallowing the system. It is pervasive and in the end UNTENABLE!. It will not work as the society will go broke first and all society will collapse. Just as the narrator in the video said. This requires firstly an education of the people WORLD WIDE and a frank discussion as to who is to blame (bankers,lenders and govt. through its complicity) and what shall we do. The one thing is doing nothing to change the WHOLE WORLD FINANCIAL/ECONOMIC SYSTEM will not stop it from failing nor freeing us. It's only like the sweep hand on clock or watch, tick, tick, tick, tick away to inevitable COLLAPSE.

Miller, if what's going on in the US hasn't convinced you that renting can be a better option than buying into a ridiculously inflated housing market, nothing will.

i feel bad for all the young people that top-ticked the housing market. they were everywhere in '06 and '07.

'buy a house'

'it's a great investment'

'DO IT NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN'

'hey did anyone watch 'flip this house' on tlc last night?!?! wasn't it GREAT!'

that's when you know the end of the bubble run is near.

nevertheless, if you can afford the payments, and you're planning on living in the house for at least 10 years, the timing of your purchase isn't as important, and miller's argument is still pretty solid.

I think I read a Buffett quote similar to that idea - "When the average Joe is flipping houses then you know you're in trouble"

yeah, dude. that's right on the money.

pretty amazing that we almost completely exhausted the housing demand within the span of a decade.

however, i've never been so happy to see a bunch of parents with a harem of children, because eventually the population growth will raise demand again. however, it only means that the next bubble will be even larger than the last.

Miller,

You make a good point on the rent. But because of an artificially over-inflated housing market it drives many people especially younger people with more modest income from getting in because for one they do not have a significant amount of down payment (hence the idea of little or no payment down that helped created this market nonsense today) and they can't qualify for the amount needed to buy the home to begin with.

Add the fact that the building of proper, safe, low cost housing that people of modest income can afford has been virtually a thrown out ideal in order to build ever more costly, to the hopes of the builders more profit and to the city higher tax value in housing. But there is no free lunch even with our flawed system. If you take too many people out of the housing market you eventually dry up demand. They tried to over come this with the little or zero down and even mortgages up to 40 years crap all to keep a vicious cycle that is doomed to fail going on. Look at what it has created in the USA (as per all, the news) and even in other markets to lesser extent?

It gets back to the corrupt monetary system that is soon to collapse all around us. We have lost the sight of sustainable development and sustainable growth in the economy because the current monetary system can't work to that ideal. So we will run this course out even as the walls come crumbling down.

I'm so glad I've waited to buy a house. I'll probably buy one next year, now that the prices have dipped to where I can afford something more than a crackhouse.

millertime wrote:I hear what you are saying, but that "$300,000 poorer" is a lot less than he would have had to pay for his rent.

Plus what value do you put on never having to worry about being kicked out because your landlord is selling or wants to move in himself, and also having total freedom to to whatever you like to the place from mailing some hooks to walls to knocking the wall down.

dunnas wrote:

millertime wrote:I hear what you are saying, but that "$300,000 poorer" is a lot less than he would have had to pay for his rent.

Plus what value do you put on never having to worry about being kicked out because your landlord is selling or wants to move in himself, and also having total freedom to to whatever you like to the place from mailing some hooks to walls to knocking the wall down.

You'll usually have a lease which prevents you from being kicked out without due notice. Also given a risky job market the value of being able to move on a month's notice is probably more positive in a down market than being saddled with illiquid undervaled property.

And design issues? Really? When people are talking about defaulting on mortgages, I don't think they give a fuck if hanging their flat panel on the wall hits their security deposit...

911 wrote:

dunnas wrote:

millertime wrote:I hear what you are saying, but that "$300,000 poorer" is a lot less than he would have had to pay for his rent.

Plus what value do you put on never having to worry about being kicked out because your landlord is selling or wants to move in himself, and also having total freedom to to whatever you like to the place from mailing some hooks to walls to knocking the wall down.

You'll usually have a lease which prevents you from being kicked out without due notice. Also given a risky job market the value of being able to move on a month's notice is probably more positive in a down market than being saddled with illiquid undervaled property.

And design issues? Really? When people are talking about defaulting on mortgages, I don't think they give a fuck if hanging their flat panel on the wall hits their security deposit...

I meant once the term of the lease is up they can send you packing. Personally we don't have a lease at the moment though. Once the 12 months was up we've just gone month to month.

Both our arguments mightn't be great, but the fact remains that there are many people that put great value on the freedom that owning their own house gives them. I'm not necessarily one of them either. I know that renting can financially work out just fine in the long run too.

"When the trades start building houses you know its time to put on the brakes"
-My Dad,

911 wrote:I think I read a Buffett quote similar to that idea - "When the average Joe is flipping houses then you know you're in trouble"

dunnas wrote:

911 wrote:

dunnas wrote:

millertime wrote:I hear what you are saying, but that "$300,000 poorer" is a lot less than he would have had to pay for his rent.

Plus what value do you put on never having to worry about being kicked out because your landlord is selling or wants to move in himself, and also having total freedom to to whatever you like to the place from mailing some hooks to walls to knocking the wall down.

You'll usually have a lease which prevents you from being kicked out without due notice. Also given a risky job market the value of being able to move on a month's notice is probably more positive in a down market than being saddled with illiquid undervaled property.

And design issues? Really? When people are talking about defaulting on mortgages, I don't think they give a fuck if hanging their flat panel on the wall hits their security deposit...

I meant once the term of the lease is up they can send you packing. Personally we don't have a lease at the moment though. Once the 12 months was up we've just gone month to month.

Both our arguments mightn't be great, but the fact remains that there are many people that put great value on the freedom that owning their own house gives them. I'm not necessarily one of them either. I know that renting can financially work out just fine in the long run too.

In this market is isn't freedom, it's a ball and chain.

I just cant fucking stand renting anymore. I am sick of it. Maybe that is why I have a bias towards home ownership. I cant wait until I am out of this fucking province and I can go back home and finally buy something half decent to live in.

No. Its freedom to modify it to your wishes.

911 wrote:

dunnas wrote:

911 wrote:

dunnas wrote:

millertime wrote:I hear what you are saying, but that "$300,000 poorer" is a lot less than he would have had to pay for his rent.

Plus what value do you put on never having to worry about being kicked out because your landlord is selling or wants to move in himself, and also having total freedom to to whatever you like to the place from mailing some hooks to walls to knocking the wall down.

You'll usually have a lease which prevents you from being kicked out without due notice. Also given a risky job market the value of being able to move on a month's notice is probably more positive in a down market than being saddled with illiquid undervaled property.

And design issues? Really? When people are talking about defaulting on mortgages, I don't think they give a fuck if hanging their flat panel on the wall hits their security deposit...

I meant once the term of the lease is up they can send you packing. Personally we don't have a lease at the moment though. Once the 12 months was up we've just gone month to month.

Both our arguments mightn't be great, but the fact remains that there are many people that put great value on the freedom that owning their own house gives them. I'm not necessarily one of them either. I know that renting can financially work out just fine in the long run too.

In this market is isn't freedom, it's a ball and chain.

besides. Its not like investing in the stock market during this crash would have made you any better off. Cash is king these days, and if you just sat on your cash for the last 5 years you were maybe pulling in 3%