The Big 3 Are Fucked

thewalrus wrote:

big_jesus wrote:

I don't know what the proper course of action is. But it isn't as simple as just 'getting rid of unions', or 'maintaining the status quo'.

i know what maintaining the status quo would lead to: stagnation or worse. busting the unions, however... that sounds intriguing. maybe something could come of that.

see the problem is that without uprooting the current unions, nothing will change with them they are little duchies, little feudal power systems, and the people who exist within them have the taste for wielding that power. they don't represent the worker. they represent the entity that is the union. true altruism sometimes has to be pragmatic, but the unions couldn't keep all of their footsoldiers if they truly acted in workers' best interests by maintaining a healthy relationship with the corporations they deal with and allowed the work force to thin or wages to drop when necessary. bloat is bloat.

Bust the unions as they currently exist - fine. But replace them with something. You absolutely need to replace them with something.

While I'm on a rant, there also needs to be a greater willingness on the part of courts to lift the corporate veil and allow some real liability to attach to corporate actions. The root of the whole problem here is an utter lack of responsibility. Unionized workers feel that they don't need to be accountable because the Unions have their back. Corporate officers couldn't give two shits about what the company does (aside from making a profit) because they're shielded from liability.

my point is that the something you replace them with--a necessity to combat the even more greedy and powerful and even less altruistic corporations' wills--must NOT be a union.

big_jesus wrote:

thewalrus wrote:

big_jesus wrote:

I don't know what the proper course of action is. But it isn't as simple as just 'getting rid of unions', or 'maintaining the status quo'.

i know what maintaining the status quo would lead to: stagnation or worse. busting the unions, however... that sounds intriguing. maybe something could come of that.

see the problem is that without uprooting the current unions, nothing will change with them they are little duchies, little feudal power systems, and the people who exist within them have the taste for wielding that power. they don't represent the worker. they represent the entity that is the union. true altruism sometimes has to be pragmatic, but the unions couldn't keep all of their footsoldiers if they truly acted in workers' best interests by maintaining a healthy relationship with the corporations they deal with and allowed the work force to thin or wages to drop when necessary. bloat is bloat.

Bust the unions as they currently exist - fine. But replace them with something. You absolutely need to replace them with something.

While I'm on a rant, there also needs to be a greater willingness on the part of courts to lift the corporate veil and allow some real liability to attach to corporate actions. The root of the whole problem here is an utter lack of responsibility. Unionized workers feel that they don't need to be accountable because the Unions have their back. Corporate officers couldn't give two shits about what the company does (aside from making a profit) because they're shielded from liability.

my point is that the something you replace them with--a necessity to combat the even more greedy and powerful and even less altruistic corporations' wills--must NOT be a union.

It just seems to me that you simply don't like unions in their present form. Organized labor itself is perfectly fine.

Anyone who wants to see unions go away only need look into countries that do not allow them. You will then see what quality of life is for labour and the general society, um IT'S NOT GOOD! Given this you'd likely reconsider the stupidity of wanting unions to go away. There is not one nation that does not allow unions that has a better and more just quality of life for labour and all of its society than of nations that do allow unions. Why oh why does all too often the middle, working class constantly want to not fight for its own best interests? Do you all think you will become a part of the top 2-3% rich class? DREAM FUCKING ON!!! Horatio Alger is DEAD!!!

I can understand though will fight many of the rich assholes who want to squish unions and the other classes in society, may these assholes all suffer and die in painful and horrible ways, but when the typical Joe working stiff and middle class people shit on their own and their own ideals well it blows me away!

Les_Vipers_rule wrote:Anyone who wants to see unions go away only need look into countries that do not allow them. You will then see what quality of life is for labour and the general society, um IT'S NOT GOOD! Given this you'd likely reconsider the stupidity of wanting unions to go away. There is not one nation that does not allow unions that has a better and more just quality of life for labour and all of its society than of nations that do allow unions. Why oh why does all too often the middle, working class constantly want to not fight for its own best interests? Do you all think you will become a part of the top 2-3% rich class? DREAM FUCKING ON!!! Horatio Alger is DEAD!!!

I can understand though will fight many of the rich assholes who want to squish unions and the other classes in society, may these assholes all suffer and die in painful and horrible ways, but when the typical Joe working stiff and middle class people shit on their own and their own ideals well it blows me away!

I've already fucking been through this once with you. When Britain stripped the Unions of their power our economy, individual prosperity and quality of life shot up. The only areas that suffered were the industries that were made bankrupt by the Unions in the first place.

Why don't you two just fuck and get it over with.

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

Les_Vipers_rule wrote:Anyone who wants to see unions go away only need look into countries that do not allow them. You will then see what quality of life is for labour and the general society, um IT'S NOT GOOD! Given this you'd likely reconsider the stupidity of wanting unions to go away. There is not one nation that does not allow unions that has a better and more just quality of life for labour and all of its society than of nations that do allow unions. Why oh why does all too often the middle, working class constantly want to not fight for its own best interests? Do you all think you will become a part of the top 2-3% rich class? DREAM FUCKING ON!!! Horatio Alger is DEAD!!!

I can understand though will fight many of the rich assholes who want to squish unions and the other classes in society, may these assholes all suffer and die in painful and horrible ways, but when the typical Joe working stiff and middle class people shit on their own and their own ideals well it blows me away!

I've already fucking been through this once with you. When Britain stripped the Unions of their power our economy, individual prosperity and quality of life shot up. The only areas that suffered were the industries that were made bankrupt by the Unions in the first place.

You prove how ignorant you are.

Is the union movement outlawed in Britain?

The wealth you talk about is being evaporated before our very eyes, so it's all BULL SHIT!!! Your nation and its population is in debt up to its eye balls, it's not wealthy, your BROKE much like other peer nations but worse than most maybe only as bad as the USA is.

You are just to ignorant to GET IT!



As for you Americans get use to hearing these words.

ALT-A and OPTION ARM... The next two credit shoes to drop beginning 2009 and going through 2012. (1.5 - 2 trillion more dollars to evaporate, all these are also mixed up on the stock market like sub primes were) Oh yeah do not forget commercial real estate credit crunch that will also unfold too.

give paulson and trichet a call and let them know because you clearly know so much more about this than they do

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:give paulson and trichet a call and let them know because you clearly know so much more about this than they do

Not just me but many others obviously know more them. If you'd take time to learn about, look at in some detail, read, listen and watch what many other respected economists and other monetary experts say you'd see more and understand more including seeing that I get my info from a wide range of quality sources. You think I'm pulling my words out of my ass? NOPE! You may be though and maybe because you refuse to see even a little bit of what is reality unfolding around us. If you think guys like Paulson and Bernanke have and are doing a good job then you are more ignorant than I already claimed you to be.

i follow this shit for a living. thats how i know you dont understand the garbage you regurgitate

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:i follow this shit for a living. thats how i know you dont understand the garbage you regurgitate

Oh give me a break? You are some junior level employee working as a cog in some corporation. You have no more knowledge as to what is FUBARED with money markets, over leveraged lending practices, the con game of such combined issues and the whole myopic, selfish, greedy Friedmanesqe, St. Ronnie, neo- con, phony baloney system than I or any other person here who cares to be informed. Fact is based on much of your dream world blather more of what I say is correct. So spare me your uppity blather of being some 'expert' or something Penz, you are not some investment guru or economic expert let alone a historian of economics and money markets. I'm confident I follow events like the one we have been witnessing better and in a wider scope of vision and thought than you because unlike you I am not living in some narrow scope as you are, but in a way to want to see the bigger picture and hear more from credible experts of various backgrounds whom themselves are often at odds with it all and what some of the things the world must do. I'm 100 % certain they ain't calling you so just keep the uppity 'expert' background you hide behind to yourself and your ego because you are no expert ok? In fact you cannot even answer my questions posed to you without being wrong or misunderstanding them. IE: The union point I made earlier, tell me when did Britain outlaw unions? As for the economic crisis as I said earlier I am not pulling my words from my ass Penz. I am following things closely out of interest, personal and general and I am hearing, reading and seeing experts where many say the same or similar things I said and say.

you dont actually know what i do and im not about to tell you either, but either way you still dont know what you're talking about and its pretty damn clear by the amount of bias that slips into your arguments

wow

One of the Best Decisions Bush has ever made.


Forcing them into a planned bankruptcy.

they need to shut down chrysler and merge gm with ford. then they should buy harley davidson and smith & wesson.

trucks, motorcycles, and guns.

rename the company 'general american'

hahaha, need to throw Hockey or Nascar in there too.


But i don't think Chrysler will actually really Open again after holiday shutdown. it just will kind of exist until its reformed, sold, etc.

you could tell from cerberus' lack of a recovery plan (it was truly farcical) that the only reason they're in this is to get someone else to take chrysler off their hands.

it needs to die. full stop.

gm should be given the chance to survive, but should be held strictly accountable and heads should role en mass until management starts showing a solid grasp of reality.

ford seems to actually have a clue, and a shot at making it on their own. let them alone.

the uaw needs to be made to face the reality that they priced themselves out of a job through sheer short-sightedness. it sucks, but they need to make concessions now, not in 2010, and that's just the sad reality. if they aren't willing to do it, then let the companies hit chapter 11, then the unions will be tossed out on their ear, and everyone will be left to take whatever wages ford and gm will impose in their greed.

it's a sad story, but i think that frankly, unless a lot of hearts get broken, people in north america just won't learn the lesson about sustainable economics. banks need to go bust, ceos need to get charged, and unions need to be made to face the reality that marxist theory is not a substitute for reality. until people learn to take a longer view, this mess isn't going to be fixed...

Somebody foreign needs to come in and buy Chrysler. You can't rely on the other two American companies. Chrysler shouldn't go away, it just needs to be reformed, GM needs to rethink their branding, and Ford needs to bring some of their European and Australian models over here.

chrysler should sell jeep to nissan.

Someone needs to buy Jeep and turn it back into Jeep. This excellent faggotry they have going on now is a joke. They need real 4x4's again.

i like the new wranglers. :jay:

I like the new wranglers, but I hate how everything went to IFS. I liked that everything 8 years ago had a solid front axle and Jeep was able to make it work. Once Daimler decided to really fuck with Jeep it just went down hill.

SBF wrote:Somebody foreign needs to come in and buy Chrysler. You can't rely on the other two American companies. Chrysler shouldn't go away, it just needs to be reformed, GM needs to rethink their branding, and Ford needs to bring some of their European and Australian models over here.

ford is bringing their european stuff, it's just going to take a couple of years.

but chrysler should die. there are at least 4 too many car companies globally, and the weakest should die. if the head of suzuki says that there should be only 3 japanese car companies (currently there are 10), and thinks that this economic situation will force that (and he didn't include suzuki in any survivors list), then i can't see a point in justifying the continued existence of incompetent car companies...

Meh, I guess I've been into Chryslers to long to see it die.

spaced cowboy wrote:

SBF wrote:Somebody foreign needs to come in and buy Chrysler. You can't rely on the other two American companies. Chrysler shouldn't go away, it just needs to be reformed, GM needs to rethink their branding, and Ford needs to bring some of their European and Australian models over here.

ford is bringing their european stuff, it's just going to take a couple of years.

but chrysler should die. there are at least 4 too many car companies globally, and the weakest should die. if the head of suzuki says that there should be only 3 japanese car companies (currently there are 10), and thinks that this economic situation will force that (and he didn't include suzuki in any survivors list), then i can't see a point in justifying the continued existence of incompetent car companies...

Which 3 Japanese companies do you see surviving? My guess would be that it's a competition for the #3 spot since Honda and Toyota are both too strong to go. But between Nissan, Mazda, Subaru... which I'd consider the next 3 to most likely stick around I can't see any of them failing any time soon.

thewalrus wrote:

spaced cowboy wrote:

SBF wrote:Somebody foreign needs to come in and buy Chrysler. You can't rely on the other two American companies. Chrysler shouldn't go away, it just needs to be reformed, GM needs to rethink their branding, and Ford needs to bring some of their European and Australian models over here.

ford is bringing their european stuff, it's just going to take a couple of years.

but chrysler should die. there are at least 4 too many car companies globally, and the weakest should die. if the head of suzuki says that there should be only 3 japanese car companies (currently there are 10), and thinks that this economic situation will force that (and he didn't include suzuki in any survivors list), then i can't see a point in justifying the continued existence of incompetent car companies...

Which 3 Japanese companies do you see surviving? My guess would be that it's a competition for the #3 spot since Honda and Toyota are both too strong to go. But between Nissan, Mazda, Subaru... which I'd consider the next 3 to most likely stick around I can't see any of them failing any time soon.

Id say Nissan would be the 3rd if you had to peg it to 3....but Mazda wont be going anywhere i dont imagine. Subaru's star has fallen in recent years so who knows with them....


As for Chrysler....a foreign company did buy them...and sold them after realising what a drain they were. They need to go under

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

thewalrus wrote:

spaced cowboy wrote:

SBF wrote:Somebody foreign needs to come in and buy Chrysler. You can't rely on the other two American companies. Chrysler shouldn't go away, it just needs to be reformed, GM needs to rethink their branding, and Ford needs to bring some of their European and Australian models over here.

ford is bringing their european stuff, it's just going to take a couple of years.

but chrysler should die. there are at least 4 too many car companies globally, and the weakest should die. if the head of suzuki says that there should be only 3 japanese car companies (currently there are 10), and thinks that this economic situation will force that (and he didn't include suzuki in any survivors list), then i can't see a point in justifying the continued existence of incompetent car companies...

Which 3 Japanese companies do you see surviving? My guess would be that it's a competition for the #3 spot since Honda and Toyota are both too strong to go. But between Nissan, Mazda, Subaru... which I'd consider the next 3 to most likely stick around I can't see any of them failing any time soon.

Id say Nissan would be the 3rd if you had to peg it to 3....but Mazda wont be going anywhere i dont imagine. Subaru's star has fallen in recent years so who knows with them....


As for Chrysler....a foreign company did buy them...and sold them after realising what a drain they were. They need to go under

I don't think Subaru's doing badly at all. They're profits have been down. But it's not like Fuji can't deal with short term loss if they think Subaru is a long term gem. And I suspect they are. Especially if people want to reconcile AWD / utility with fuel economy etc.

thewalrus wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

thewalrus wrote:

spaced cowboy wrote:

SBF wrote:Somebody foreign needs to come in and buy Chrysler. You can't rely on the other two American companies. Chrysler shouldn't go away, it just needs to be reformed, GM needs to rethink their branding, and Ford needs to bring some of their European and Australian models over here.

ford is bringing their european stuff, it's just going to take a couple of years.

but chrysler should die. there are at least 4 too many car companies globally, and the weakest should die. if the head of suzuki says that there should be only 3 japanese car companies (currently there are 10), and thinks that this economic situation will force that (and he didn't include suzuki in any survivors list), then i can't see a point in justifying the continued existence of incompetent car companies...

Which 3 Japanese companies do you see surviving? My guess would be that it's a competition for the #3 spot since Honda and Toyota are both too strong to go. But between Nissan, Mazda, Subaru... which I'd consider the next 3 to most likely stick around I can't see any of them failing any time soon.

Id say Nissan would be the 3rd if you had to peg it to 3....but Mazda wont be going anywhere i dont imagine. Subaru's star has fallen in recent years so who knows with them....


As for Chrysler....a foreign company did buy them...and sold them after realising what a drain they were. They need to go under

I don't think Subaru's doing badly at all. They're profits have been down. But it's not like Fuji can't deal with short term loss if they think Subaru is a long term gem. And I suspect they are. Especially if people want to reconcile AWD / utility with fuel economy etc.

Seriously, what is it with you and the word their/theyre?!?

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

thewalrus wrote:

Pennzoil GT-R wrote:

thewalrus wrote:

spaced cowboy wrote:

SBF wrote:Somebody foreign needs to come in and buy Chrysler. You can't rely on the other two American companies. Chrysler shouldn't go away, it just needs to be reformed, GM needs to rethink their branding, and Ford needs to bring some of their European and Australian models over here.

ford is bringing their european stuff, it's just going to take a couple of years.

but chrysler should die. there are at least 4 too many car companies globally, and the weakest should die. if the head of suzuki says that there should be only 3 japanese car companies (currently there are 10), and thinks that this economic situation will force that (and he didn't include suzuki in any survivors list), then i can't see a point in justifying the continued existence of incompetent car companies...

Which 3 Japanese companies do you see surviving? My guess would be that it's a competition for the #3 spot since Honda and Toyota are both too strong to go. But between Nissan, Mazda, Subaru... which I'd consider the next 3 to most likely stick around I can't see any of them failing any time soon.

Id say Nissan would be the 3rd if you had to peg it to 3....but Mazda wont be going anywhere i dont imagine. Subaru's star has fallen in recent years so who knows with them....


As for Chrysler....a foreign company did buy them...and sold them after realising what a drain they were. They need to go under

I don't think Subaru's doing badly at all. They're profits have been down. But it's not like Fuji can't deal with short term loss if they think Subaru is a long term gem. And I suspect they are. Especially if people want to reconcile AWD / utility with fuel economy etc.

Seriously, what is it with you and the word their/theyre?!?

When I type quickly and I don't think I have a habit of making that mistake.

I'd have thought that would be obvious.

Oh trust us wally, it be very obvious.

thewalrus wrote:

spaced cowboy wrote:

SBF wrote:Somebody foreign needs to come in and buy Chrysler. You can't rely on the other two American companies. Chrysler shouldn't go away, it just needs to be reformed, GM needs to rethink their branding, and Ford needs to bring some of their European and Australian models over here.

ford is bringing their european stuff, it's just going to take a couple of years.

but chrysler should die. there are at least 4 too many car companies globally, and the weakest should die. if the head of suzuki says that there should be only 3 japanese car companies (currently there are 10), and thinks that this economic situation will force that (and he didn't include suzuki in any survivors list), then i can't see a point in justifying the continued existence of incompetent car companies...

Which 3 Japanese companies do you see surviving? My guess would be that it's a competition for the #3 spot since Honda and Toyota are both too strong to go. But between Nissan, Mazda, Subaru... which I'd consider the next 3 to most likely stick around I can't see any of them failing any time soon.

i see honda, toyota, and probably both mitsubishi and nissan surviving. the others will probably be folded into the other brands in buy-outs. subaru's owners can survive, but if they're interested in profitability, they may not have the incentive to retain the car arm when they can use it to raise cash and preserve other core businesses.

mitsubishi's big edge over nissan is that it's part of a business organization built around the biggest bank in japan. so it's got the biggest piggybank out there, and a good global car line, even if they're not so hot in north america.

nissan's got bigger sales, so it would likely survive longer than others, and has a strong product line. mazda, while great, is a small company, and may have a harder time riding out the hard times. that said, it's cars are so good, someone will definitely buy it long before it goes under. perhaps toyota, so that they finally have something that's not a lexus and isn't stunningly dull?...

nissan is fine. from an operating standpoint, they're getting better every year. they'll weather this market.

spaced cowboy wrote:

thewalrus wrote:

spaced cowboy wrote:

SBF wrote:Somebody foreign needs to come in and buy Chrysler. You can't rely on the other two American companies. Chrysler shouldn't go away, it just needs to be reformed, GM needs to rethink their branding, and Ford needs to bring some of their European and Australian models over here.

ford is bringing their european stuff, it's just going to take a couple of years.

but chrysler should die. there are at least 4 too many car companies globally, and the weakest should die. if the head of suzuki says that there should be only 3 japanese car companies (currently there are 10), and thinks that this economic situation will force that (and he didn't include suzuki in any survivors list), then i can't see a point in justifying the continued existence of incompetent car companies...

Which 3 Japanese companies do you see surviving? My guess would be that it's a competition for the #3 spot since Honda and Toyota are both too strong to go. But between Nissan, Mazda, Subaru... which I'd consider the next 3 to most likely stick around I can't see any of them failing any time soon.

i see honda, toyota, and probably both mitsubishi and nissan surviving. the others will probably be folded into the other brands in buy-outs. subaru's owners can survive, but if they're interested in profitability, they may not have the incentive to retain the car arm when they can use it to raise cash and preserve other core businesses.

mitsubishi's big edge over nissan is that it's part of a business organization built around the biggest bank in japan. so it's got the biggest piggybank out there, and a good global car line, even if they're not so hot in north america.

nissan's got bigger sales, so it would likely survive longer than others, and has a strong product line. mazda, while great, is a small company, and may have a harder time riding out the hard times. that said, it's cars are so good, someone will definitely buy it long before it goes under. perhaps toyota, so that they finally have something that's not a lexus and isn't stunningly dull?...

I think Toyota is making moves on Subaru.