So I think GM has lost it...

The 2015 Z28 will be $75,000. More than the SS or ZL1.

The idea of a $75,000 Camaro is just mind boggling. There's so many other cars you could buy at that price.

The fucking Corvette starts at 53k. So is the Corvette the poor man's Camaro now?

No wonder these clowns are struggling to keep their head above water.

2015 Suburbans start at 47k. With 2wd. 47k. Up to 68k for the Denali trim.

Dude it's 2014, shits way more expensive than 10 years ago. The last time I looked at a new Silverado in the package I wanted 4 years ago, it was $32k. The equivalent 2014 Silverado is $38k.

Plus, the Z/28 is now the top of the line Camaro. The base Corvette is $53k. Don't forget about the ZO6 and ZL1. The C6 ZL1 was $100k.

I don't think it's fair to say that they've lost their shit, when they are doing business as usual. GM got fucked in the recession, but they pulled themselves out and paid back their loans. They've actually making a profit the last few years as well. Now the recall bullshit has caused a major setback, but I wouldn't say GM is struggling to keep their head above water.

Still, the base corvette being over 20k cheaper than a top of the line camaro is kind of ridiculous. And it still can probably outperform the Z28. It has 45 less hp, but likely weighs less. Who would buy a camaro, any camaro, if you can afford a vette? They're moving away from the point of muscle cars by making these hella expensive versions.

And why didnt they just make the Z28 to begin with and save the SS or ZL1 nameplate for the top of the line badge? Z28 being over SS and ZL1 is ass backwards. Look at the 4th gen Camaros. That's how it was in the old days as well IIRC, Z28 was the track model and was always "below" the SS and other models.

Flowties are expensive.

Honor wrote:Still, the base corvette being over 20k cheaper than a top of the line camaro is kind of ridiculous. And it still can probably outperform the Z28. It has 45 less hp, but likely weighs less. Who would buy a camaro, any camaro, if you can afford a vette? They're moving away from the point of muscle cars by making these hella expensive versions.

And why didnt they just make the Z28 to begin with and save the SS or ZL1 nameplate for the top of the line badge? Z28 being over SS and ZL1 is ass backwards. Look at the 4th gen Camaros. That's how it was in the old days as well IIRC, Z28 was the track model and was always "below" the SS and other models.

Well you need to look at 1st Gen Camaro history and technically the z/28 was the top of the line, not the SS, the SS just was "above" the z/28 because it got more expensive because of the packaging. The new z/28 is a streetable track car. With all the upgrades and aluminum, etc, it makes sense that it's the top of the line. Honestly, it doesn't bother me that it's more expensive than the base Corvette and by what Chevy is saying, the z/28 will out perform the base Corvette, even with the Z51 package.

They will sell thousands of them.

SBF wrote:Dude it's 2014, shits way more expensive than 10 years ago. The last time I looked at a new Silverado in the package I wanted 4 years ago, it was $32k. The equivalent 2014 Silverado is $38k.

Plus, the Z/28 is now the top of the line Camaro. The base Corvette is $53k. Don't forget about the ZO6 and ZL1. The C6 ZL1 was $100k.

I don't think it's fair to say that they've lost their shit, when they are doing business as usual. GM got fucked in the recession, but they pulled themselves out and paid back their loans. They've actually making a profit the last few years as well. Now the recall bullshit has caused a major setback, but I wouldn't say GM is struggling to keep their head above water.

I agree - the new Camaro Z/28 is essentially a limited production, limited edition, track focused, performance focused car.  Not at all unlike the Shelby GT500 which tops out at over 60... and realistically you aren't getting off the lot for 5 or 6 more than that.

That said, saw a new Corvette on Sunday - that car is a stunner.  I'd take it over a Z/28 any day.

What does an Escalade cost these days? Basically a Tahoe in Cadi' skin.

Talon wrote:What does an Escalade cost these days? Basically a Tahoe in Cadi' skin.

I was curious.  $86 K CND.  So you aren't leaving the lot without parting with $90 K +.

Ouch.

Talon wrote:Ouch.

We live in a world where the top of the line Ford F150 (not Raptor or some other hod-rod version) can be optioned up to nearly $65 K.  So, really, a Cadillac for an extra 20 k isn't unfathomable.

The funny thing is, these luxo-pickups are as common as Civics around Alberta.

SBF wrote:

Honor wrote:Still, the base corvette being over 20k cheaper than a top of the line camaro is kind of ridiculous. And it still can probably outperform the Z28. It has 45 less hp, but likely weighs less. Who would buy a camaro, any camaro, if you can afford a vette? They're moving away from the point of muscle cars by making these hella expensive versions.

And why didnt they just make the Z28 to begin with and save the SS or ZL1 nameplate for the top of the line badge? Z28 being over SS and ZL1 is ass backwards. Look at the 4th gen Camaros. That's how it was in the old days as well IIRC, Z28 was the track model and was always "below" the SS and other models.

Well you need to look at 1st Gen Camaro history and technically the z/28 was the top of the line, not the SS, the SS just was "above" the z/28 because it got more expensive because of the packaging. The new z/28 is a streetable track car. With all the upgrades and aluminum, etc, it makes sense that it's the top of the line. Honestly, it doesn't bother me that it's more expensive than the base Corvette and by what Chevy is saying, the z/28 will out perform the base Corvette, even with the Z51 package.

They will sell thousands of them.

Eh, 75k just seems a bit steep for a Camaro, even if it's top of the line. I mean the ZL1 is like 19k cheaper. And it has 580hp compared to the Z28's 505. What could justify the Z28 costing 19k more than the ZL1 despite having less power? Because it can turn?

Just a few years ago you could get a Z06 brand new for what, like 65-70k? Now a Z28 costs more than that? Madness. And Camaros are outperforming Corvettes now out the door? What happened to the Corvette being the flagship? Like I said, they're losing it.

The Z28 is 3800lbs. The Corvette is 3300. It also has a better power/weight ratio. And the Camaro will outperform it? I'll believe it when I see it.

And GM is claiming the Z28 is faster than the 911 gt2 and lp640. but those are wet times supposedly. I guess it can't touch the GTR or they would have mentioned it.

Honor wrote:


Eh, 75k just seems a bit steep for a Camaro, even if it's top of the line. I mean the ZL1 is like 19k cheaper. And it has 580hp compared to the Z28's 505. What could justify the Z28 costing 19k more than the ZL1 despite having less power? Because it can turn?

Same things could have been said about the Shelby GT350 too. And yeah - 19K more than a ZL1 because it can turn. Makes perfect sense. Just like we'll pay $19 more for a car that already turns, but was made faster. Absolutely. I like it. It is a bit of a porker, though.

Honor wrote:Just a few years ago you could get a Z06 brand new for what, like 65-70k? Now a Z28 costs more than that? Madness. And Camaros are outperforming Corvettes now out the door? What happened to the Corvette being the flagship? Like I said, they're losing it.

But you have to remember that this Z-28 isn't just any ordinary Z28 from years ago. It's a different, rare, and very unique beast. More like the Cobra R, than any other Pony Car I can think of. Not for everyone. I'm pretty sure it doesn't come with air-conditioning, and I think the radio is optional. Worth it? Nope. And yes.

Dude, it's called inflation. Everything has inflated costs every year. That's why things are more expensive now than 5 years ago.

You think GM is losing their ass on a $75k Camaro z/28? Then by your logic Ford should be losing their ass on the $97k Ford Cobra Jet Mustang.

Why is it $19k more than a ZL1? Carbon Brakes, Aero Package, Aluminum parts, etc, that aren't on the ZL1.

Yeah, the Cobra R. What a niche that was.

There's a 97k mustang?  

Oh, that's a drag ready car.

SBF wrote:Dude, it's called inflation. Everything has inflated costs every year. That's why things are more expensive now than 5 years ago.

You think GM is losing their ass on a $75k Camaro z/28? Then by your logic Ford should be losing their ass on the $97k Ford Cobra Jet Mustang.

Why is it $19k more than a ZL1? Carbon Brakes, Aero Package, Aluminum parts, etc, that aren't on the ZL1.

Funny how it has those lightweight parts and still is the better part of 2 tons. Wtf? I guess without it would be like 4100 like the ZL1 eh?

Wow, the GT500 starts 20k lower than the Z28. And it has over 150 more hp (662 vs 505). And is only 25lbs heavier.

Why didn't they just give the vette this attention? Isn't that really only available in the base trim right now? No Z06 or ZR1 on the horizon? The flaghship car for GM right now is a Camaro? Ah wait, Z06 is out next year and estimated to be 125k. Back to normal I suppose. But this has got to be the first time in history you can get a vette, any vette, for cheaper than a camaro. even if it is top of the line.

Honor wrote:Yeah, the Cobra R. What a niche that was.

Yeah. A niche. Which is what this car is. Unless you think the average consumer wants to spend this much on a car with no radio or air conditioning, and hyper expensive tires and a rough ride.

Honor wrote:There's a 97k mustang?  

Oh, that's a drag ready car.

And this is essentially a track ready car - from everything I've read.

Honor wrote:Wow, the GT500 starts 20k lower than the Z28. And it has over 150 more hp (662 vs 505). And is only 25lbs heavier.

Why didn't they just give the vette this attention? Isn't that really only available in the base trim right now? No Z06 or ZR1 on the horizon? The flaghship car for GM right now is a Camaro?

You don't think they've given the new Vette a huge amount of attention? Far more than the Z28? Have you seen the new Vette in person? Heard it go by? Read the reviews? It's insane how much further they've taken that car, then the C6 / C5.

It's really just because of the name I suppose. 12 years ago the Z28 was the base V8 model. Now it's the king of the hill. It just seems strange. If the SS was called the Z28 and the ZL1 was called the SS and the Z28 was called the ZL1, it would be different. It almost seems the opposite compared to the old nomenclature.

It's just weird how much nameplates change over the years. If you told us back in 2002 that in 12 years the Z28 would be over 2x as expensive as the SS (which used to be the SLP verision of the Z28), wouldn't you be a bit surprised?

Honor wrote:It's really just because of the name I suppose. 12 years ago the Z28 was the base V8 model. Now it's the king of the hill. It just seems strange. If the SS was called the Z28 and the ZL1 was called the SS and the Z28 was called the ZL1, it would be different. It almost seems the opposite compared to the old nomenclature.

It's just weird how much nameplates change over the years. If you told us back in 2002 that in 12 years the Z28 would be over 2x as expensive as the SS (which used to be the SLP verision of the Z28), wouldn't you be a bit surprised?

Yeah. For sure. And from a Marketing perspective, maybe that's a bad thing. The Cobra has always been the performance mustang. And that will never change. That's a good way to do it.

The 6 cylinder camaro has as much power as the SS did 12 years ago, lol. So does that mean that in another 12 years the 6cyl will have 425hp like the SS does now?


When will these power wars start to level off? Are we going to have 700hp Elantras, etc. one day? 1500hp Mercedes S class? Cars these days are approaching some locomotives in power, it's crazy. Not that I think they would be able to pull a train or anything, just talking about the sheer numbers here.

Honor wrote:The 6 cylinder camaro has as much power as the SS did 12 years ago, lol. So does that mean that in another 12 years the 6cyl will have 425hp like the SS does now?


When will these power wars start to level off? Are we going to have 700hp Elantras, etc. one day? 1500hp Mercedes S class? Cars these days are approaching some locomotives in power, it's crazy. Not that I think they would be able to pull a train or anything, just talking about the sheer numbers here.

I think we're seeing the zenith of the horse power wars right now.  You can only have your cake and eat it too, for so long.  And, amazingly, companies have been increasing horsepower without significantly increasing fuel economy for a while.  But that can't go on forever.  And gas costs likely aren't going down.  I hope the next 'big thing' is light weight.  Heck, even Ford is trying that with their F150 - the 2015 being made largely out of aluminum, and offering smaller turbo charged engine options that provide more variability with better fuel economy, in lieu of their biggest V8s.  (Apparently Ford replaced their 6.7 L V8 with a Turbo 2.7 L V6 for the 2015 model).

Yeah, we're stating to shift toward electric cars and such too. Companies are probably researching that more than anything.

Honor wrote:Yeah, we're stating to shift toward electric cars and such too. Companies are probably researching that more than anything.

Yep - electrics and hybrids.  Hybrids not just for fuel economy, but also for performance - ie. the Porsche 918, BMW i8 etc.  In fact, I think the i8 is an excellent example of how performance cars in the near future are going to be designed and built.  Light weight.  Small, efficient, but performance oriented engine plus an electric motor.  In many ways my old CRZ was a pretty good forerunner.

What was that like 7 cars ago?

Honor wrote:What was that like 7 cars ago?

Nah - I've only had the GTI, Miata, TDI and MGB since then.  So 4.

From what I've read, that Z28 is so fast because of the fact it comes on pseudo-slicks. Obviously tires are huge in performance. Everything I've read said how much grip the car has. 3800 lbs + grip = Awesome tires. Tires that probably cost $3,000 to replace and only last for 3000 city driven miles.

Yeah, and it has 305s rear and front. Imagine if you put these tires on the 500lb lighter vette.

On a side note, the new M3 starts at 72k. Seems alot more likely to draw in the crowd looking to spend that much.

I really think throwing super sticky tires on a car is like cheating. The new R&T has the Z28 vs Viper vs GTR vs Vanquish. The Viper had the best times (120k) but they kept talking about the grip of the Z28. That's 99% tires.

Is the new M3 still running a V8TT or did they go back to the slant six yet?

Honor wrote:Yeah, and it has 305s rear and front. Imagine if you put these tires on the 500lb lighter vette.

On a side note, the new M3 starts at 72k. Seems alot more likely to draw in the crowd looking to spend that much.

Yeah… and they expect to sell a lot more of them. But the Z/28 will definitely have its fans. It offers something pretty unique - and it will definitely appeal to a lot of people who like a fully capable pony car. Plus you won't see a Z/28 on every second street corner, and that exclusivity means a lot to some people.

Talon wrote:I really think throwing super sticky tires on a car is like cheating. The new R&T has the Z28 vs Viper vs GTR vs Vanquish. The Viper had the best times (120k) but they kept talking about the grip of the Z28. That's 99% tires.

Is the new M3 still running a V8TT or did they go back to the slant six yet?

I totally agree. It is like cheating. Don't stick what is essentially racing slicks on a car and compare it to cars that come  with street tires. I'm sure alot of cars would do circles around a 3800lb car like the Z if they had similiar tires. GM is acting like it's all the car and no tires.

And pretty sure the M3 is back to a I6

Honor wrote:And pretty sure the M3 is back to a I6

Fuck I hope so.  A turbo I4 in a car like that when you have perfectly good I6s available, is bullshit.

The new Z-28 is a nice car and brutally quick but My God $75,000! I recall back in the day, mid 80's when one could get a Z-28, later IROC Camaro which for their time were top performing muscle cars for $20K or so. A working stiff with working wages could afford to buy one and know for the time he was driving a pretty nice, go fast car. Today the Z-28 is beyond a regular working stiff's wages. But then the top pony cars by all three US makers are pretty well out of control price wise.